4k from 7000 or 6500 honda

[heathfranklin]

Is the eu7000 the best putt putt for this? Or is there something better about the 6500?

How do I get from the genny's twist lock to bates?

My ballast is 220 or 120 - how do I rewire this to go 220?

How far can I go with bates before I lose too much voltage?

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Our 7000 works well. They work even better if you get a unit to balance the load.
You have to either hardwire the bates into the Honda or make a pigtail from twist lock to bates.
We have a pigtail.
You don't have to rewire your ballast. Just use the 220 that the generator puts out or use a spider box to make it 120. I doubt the generator will push a 4K in 120 since it would require too many amps.
My gaffer tells me 200' is as far as he likes to run the cable.
Some older electronic units and magnetic ballast's will trip the generator when they fire up, you for sure want to get a unit to balance the load
for those lights.

 

[heathfranklin]

Eric! what's up.

Where'd you get the pigtail? I'm waiting to hear from Gilbert @ Galaxy but maybe there's an off-the-shelf version somewhere?
Did you look at the pic? I believe I want to wire the ballast to accept 220 directly from the genny. Just not sure which wires need to go where?

 

[Paul Dean]

... Some older electronic units and magnetic ballast's will trip the generator when they fire up, you for sure want to get a unit to balance the load for those lights.

The load balancing unit that Eric is referring to is a Transformer/Distro. It steps-down the 240V output of the generator to a true 60A/120V circuit (the 60A Bates on modified generators only provide 50A.) The advantage of this approach is that power factor corrected electronic 4k ballasts will draw about 38A at 120V, leaving you 22A for other smaller 120V loads. Because a Transformer/Distro splits whatever you plug into its’ secondary evenly on its’ primary, it will automatically balance any additional loads, which makes distribution easy and will enable you to maximize the load on the generator. For instance, you could plug in an additional ARRIMAX M18 through the Transformer/Distro where you wouldn’t have enough power available on either leg of the generator if you plugged it in directly. You can even get Transformer/Distros with voltage boost capability so that you can run out more than 200’ of cable from the generator and compensate for the voltage drop on the Transformer/Distro. This is critical if you want to record sound because now you can operate the generator far from set where it won’t be picked up on your audio tracks. The Transformer/Distros are outfitted with 60A Bates receptacles so that you can use standard distro equipment around your set and don’t need to rewire your ballast. From the picture attached it looks like Heath has a magnetic ballast. Since magnetic ballasts strike at higher Amps and then settle down to their steady state load, he will defiinitely need the added headroom that a Transformer/Distro provides.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Yep, we need to pick one of these up.
We have no problems running our electric ballasts on the 7000 but the backup magnetic will trip it.

The load balancing unit that Eric is referring to is a Transformer/Distro. It steps-down the 240V output of the generator to a true 60A/120V circuit (the 60A Bates on modified generators only provide 50A.) The advantage of this approach is that power factor corrected electronic 4k ballasts will draw about 38A at 120V, leaving you 22A for other smaller 120V loads. Because a Transformer/Distro splits whatever you plug into its’ secondary evenly on its’ primary, it will automatically balance any additional loads, which makes distribution easy and will enable you to maximize the load on the generator. For instance, you could plug in an additional ARRIMAX M18 through the Transformer/Distro where you wouldn’t have enough power available on either leg of the generator if you plugged it in directly. You can even get Transformer/Distros with voltage boost capability so that you can run out more than 200’ of cable from the generator and compensate for the voltage drop on the Transformer/Distro. This is critical if you want to record sound because now you can operate the generator far from set where it won’t be picked up on your audio tracks. The Transformer/Distros are outfitted with 60A Bates receptacles so that you can use standard distro equipment around your set and don’t need to rewire your ballast. From the picture attached it looks like Heath has a magnetic ballast. Since magnetic ballasts strike at higher Amps and then settle down to their steady state load, he will defiinitely need the added headroom that a Transformer/Distro provides.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Hey dude!
That's funny, didn't put two and two together that it was you!
Jason wired our pig tail.
You want us to make you one?
I can check on what it would cost. We'd just do it for you as cheap as possible. I would guess it would be cheaper than ordering from a commercial place.
You could easily do it yourself. Just order the connectors and pick up wire by the foot at a welding store. Just make sure it's the right kind of wire, and make sure to connect it correctly ;-)
Is the 4K ballast not wired for 220 already? I'm venturing a bit from my field but I THINK it would be better to have it 220 so you can have your cable run longer. Meaning I THINK 220 will run better over long distances.
Those transformers are nice. They're pricy and we just haven't needed it yet so haven't put the money down. If there's more than one 4K we just get larger distro ussually.
Email me. You should also hit up my gaffer Jason. He knows a lot more about this. You still have his email? On the call sheet of course.
Rye has been doing well it seems!
Hope the family is great.
EH

Eric! what's up.

Where'd you get the pigtail? I'm waiting to hear from Gilbert @ Galaxy but maybe there's an off-the-shelf version somewhere?
Did you look at the pic? I believe I want to wire the ballast to accept 220 directly from the genny. Just not sure which wires need to go where?

 

[heathfranklin]

Yeah - looks like rye is doing well...

Out of my knowledge area here, but...

I thought running 240 would balance the load as it runs both legs.

I thought 240 would reduce amp draw in half negating the 50amp ceiling giving me adequate headroom.

I'm not too concerned about running other lights off that puttputt.., for now.

How much do those transformer/distro/step down things cost anyhow?

My arri ballast can be easily wired 110 or 220. Easy except I don't know how to do it..

So... Why can't I go straight 240 out of genny into ballast? Four wire twisty to 60 amp bates?

I'll email Jason, too. Thanks a bunch

 

[Eric M Hurt]

I think because you're only pulling one leg when you pull the 240 (could be wrong).
The 50amp is the 240 (I think) but it might be that you're able to run it from one leg unbalanced because it's pulling some of those amps off of the other leg (pure speculation)
Answers if you google "Honda 6500 transformer"
Not sure on the ballast. Jason won't me touch the lights;-)
You can go straight out of the ballast into the 240 with a twist lock to bates pigtail. That's what we do.
Jason will have better answers!
Oh, here's the new rental site if you need anything: www.photongripandelectric.com
You in Charlotte? I'm there off and on. We have a house on Lake Norman which is always fun.
Talk soon!
EH

Yeah - looks like rye is doing well...

Out of my knowledge area here, but...

I thought running 240 would balance the load as it runs both legs.

I thought 240 would reduce amp draw in half negating the 50amp ceiling giving me adequate headroom.

I'm not too concerned about running other lights off that puttputt.., for now.

How much do those transformer/distro/step down things cost anyhow?

My arri ballast can be easily wired 110 or 220. Easy except I don't know how to do it..

So... Why can't I go straight 240 out of genny into ballast? Four wire twisty to 60 amp bates?

I'll email Jason, too. Thanks a bunch

 

[Paul Dean]

So... Why can't I go straight 240 out of genny into ballast? Four wire twisty to 60 amp bates?

I’m not an electrical engineer, but according to Harry Box in the latest Edition of his “Set Lighting Technician’s Handbook”, and from what I have read elsewhere online, the self inductance of the large copper coils in magnetic HMI ballasts create a spike in the current waveform drawn by the ballast and it is the harmonics of this distorted current waveform that trips the 30A two pole breaker of the 240V twist-lock receptacle on the generator (many electronic ballasts will do the same.)

Since a transformer is a new impedance point (where a new voltage is created) there is no neutral conductor from the generator to the transformer, and since there is no physical connection between the primary and secondary of a transformer, a transformer isolates the generator from the distorted waveform drawn by the magnetic HMI ballast. As such, the harmonics drawn by the ballast don’t trip the breaker on the generator. You can go straight out of the 240V twist-lock only with the newest power factor corrected Electronic HMI ballasts, but then you can’t power much else. An second advantage to operating the new electronic ballasts at 120V through a transformer/distro is that you still have 22A to power other smaller 120V loads.

A third advantage to using a transformer/distro is that, because of the 2014 revisions to the NEC, Honda is now putting commercial grade GFCIs on the EU7000 generators. The residual currents generated by non-power factor corrected HMIs, Kinos, and LEDs will trip these breakers when the generator is properly bonded (which is important for ground fault protection.) Plugging these loads in through a transformer/distro bypasses the commercial grade GFCIs on the generator; and, when you need GFCI protection for wet work, a transformer/distro enables you to use a film style GFCI, like a Shock Block or Shock Stop, that filters the residual currents and won’t trip under these loads.

Paul Dean

 

[Paul Dean]

Those transformers are nice. They're pricy and we just haven't needed it yet so haven't put the money down. If there's more than one 4K we just get larger distro ussually.

If there is more than one 4k, you can’t just get larger distro, you have to get a larger generator. The other option is to parallel two Hondas. With modification two EU6500s or EU7000s operating in parallel will generate 120A. But since that is at 240V, a transformer/distro is required to step-down some or all of it to 120V. A paralleling set up will provide 44A, after the two 4ks, which is enough to light a big night exterior.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Yes Paul, that's of course what I meant. Thank you for clearing up that obvious mistake.
We get larger generators and more distro. Frankly the last thing I want is to haul around an extra 7000 and the transformer. Renting a large generator that shows up on set when you have a large night scene is a heck of a lot easier. Having the 7000 is nice for smaller stuff.

If there is more than one 4k, you can’t just get larger distro, you have to get a larger generator. The other option is to parallel two Hondas. With modification two EU6500s or EU7000s operating in parallel will generate 120A. But since that is at 240V, a transformer/distro is required to step-down some or all of it to 120V. A paralleling set up will provide 44A, after the two 4ks, which is enough to light a big night exterior.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

We have no problem with one 4K with electronic ballast directly from the generator.

I’m not an electrical engineer, but according to Harry Box in the latest Edition of his “Set Lighting Technician’s Handbook”, and from what I have read elsewhere online, the self inductance of the large copper coils in magnetic HMI ballasts create a spike in the current waveform drawn by the ballast and it is the harmonics of this distorted current waveform that trips the 30A two pole breaker of the 240V twist-lock receptacle on the generator (many electronic ballasts will do the same.)

Since a transformer is a new impedance point (where a new voltage is created) there is no neutral conductor from the generator to the transformer, and since there is no physical connection between the primary and secondary of a transformer, a transformer isolates the generator from the distorted waveform drawn by the magnetic HMI ballast. As such, the harmonics drawn by the ballast don’t trip the breaker on the generator. You can go straight out of the 240V twist-lock only with the newest power factor corrected Electronic HMI ballasts, but then you can’t power much else. An second advantage to operating the new electronic ballasts at 120V through a transformer/distro is that you still have 22A to power other smaller 120V loads.

A third advantage to using a transformer/distro is that, because of the 2014 revisions to the NEC, Honda is now putting commercial grade GFCIs on the EU7000 generators. The residual currents generated by non-power factor corrected HMIs, Kinos, and LEDs will trip these breakers when the generator is properly bonded (which is important for ground fault protection.) Plugging these loads in through a transformer/distro bypasses the commercial grade GFCIs on the generator; and, when you need GFCI protection for wet work, a transformer/distro enables you to use a film style GFCI, like a Shock Block or Shock Stop, that filters the residual currents and won’t trip under these loads.

Paul Dean

 

[Casey Schmidt]

GFCI usage and honda genny.

GFCI usage and honda genny.

We have no problem with one 4K with electronic ballast directly from the generator.

I have the Honda Eu6500 and a step down transformer used to power a 4K PAR. I am really surprised to hear though, any one has encountered an issue striking the light using a mag ballast at 240V. The amp load should only be about 20 per leg perfectly balanced. I wouldn't run anything else on the circuit besides the light to allow for some "headspace" in the armature windings. It's true though the modern style electronic ballasts will draw less current though over your mag ballast.

Dean's comment about the newer honda genny's with internal GFI makes me wonder if they have started bonding the neutrals in the generators which hasn't been the case in the past if I'm not mistaken. GFCI's generally wont work on most putt putt's (my honda included) with ought the use of the step down transformer which creates a bonded neutral in the transformer and downstream from there GFI can be utilized safely.

 

[Paul Dean]

...wonder if they have started bonding the neutrals in the generators which hasn't been the case in the past if I'm not mistaken. GFCI's generally wont work on most putt putt's (my honda included) with ought the use of the step down transformer which creates a bonded neutral in the transformer and downstream from there GFI can be utilized safely.

The Honda EU7000 does not bond ground and neutral which makes their GFCIs ineffectual in certain situations (for details use this link to an article called “Production Power on a Budget” in the latest issue of Protocol.) For reliable ground fault protection a transformer should be used upstream of GFCIs used to offer ground fault protection with the Honda EU6500s and EU7000s generators.

Paul Dean

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Honestly we haven't tried it with many magnetic ballasts, but the 4K magnetic we tried with didn't work.

I have the Honda Eu6500 and a step down transformer used to power a 4K PAR. I am really surprised to hear though, any one has encountered an issue striking the light using a mag ballast at 240V. The amp load should only be about 20 per leg perfectly balanced. I wouldn't run anything else on the circuit besides the light to allow for some "headspace" in the armature windings. It's true though the modern style electronic ballasts will draw less current though over your mag ballast.

Dean's comment about the newer honda genny's with internal GFI makes me wonder if they have started bonding the neutrals in the generators which hasn't been the case in the past if I'm not mistaken. GFCI's generally wont work on most putt putt's (my honda included) with ought the use of the step down transformer which creates a bonded neutral in the transformer and downstream from there GFI can be utilized safely.