New things we learned from RED DAY

[Sam Taylor]

Michael would be the best person to chime in, when he gets rested up, but my understanding of his talk is that he was addressing the velocity of development between 1999 and 2009 (using numbers to make his point) and making the argument that we are still in the early innings of a game which is still far from over. And the people who will prosper in the shifting paradigm are those who stay in front of what he called "the changing media ecosystem" (how we relate to, and interact with our shifting relationship to our data and its means of production).

Hope this helps. But really, since Michael is a member here and also a very accessible guy, it would be good to engage him about his own ideas. I think I paraphrase fairly well, but paraphrasing almost always involves a level of interpretation (also I was writing this at 4am and promptly ejected my brain hard drive after I finished it, so I'd hate to mis-read based on my loose memory...) that can't quite capture the original texts.

Thanks, y'all for having a look.

Thanks very much! Especially as you wrote it at 4am! I hope your brain got a good long shut down time!

 

[Joseph Hutson]

Ah, actually I saw it reboot in 12 seconds (twice) - and they are still fine tuning the camera... so be careful on establishing specs in that regard.

It is plenty fast, that's for sure.

The reason why he quoted 13.7 seconds was because I was with Jim when he did the stopwatch on an iPhone to determine the boot up time...

 

[Jarred Land]

Well written summary Meryem. Still, no additional info about the RED HMI!

Best kept secret of the show

 

[Filip Orlandic]

Best kept secret of the show

Welcome back

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Possible correction in order?

Possible correction in order?

Hi Miltos - here is my overview of new developments, based on info gleaned at the RED user event, hope it helps.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/science_n_technology/red-digital-cinema-the-nab-2010-event.html

Overall, a very good overview - but I need to differ with one statement:

Quoting from the article: "RED’s competition has started releasing 4K cameras, with the Arri Alexa and a Sony 4K announcement."

Oops - In reallity, the Alexa should not be referred to as a 4K camera.
I spent quite a bit of time in the ARRI booth at the show examining Alexa. The ARRI reps continually referred to the Alexa as a 2K camera - never as 4K. While the sensor starts out with a Super 35 CMOS Bayer sensor at 3.5K, the highest possible resolution output is uncompressed 2K to an external recorder. Using the internal SxS cards, you are working with 1080p.

Repeat; the maximum resolution you can record with Alexa is 2K.

Now, don't get me wrong - the Alexa looks like an excellent tool. Being able to record 2K to an outboard recorder of my choice is a feature that has real value. And working with ProRes files immediately after shooting has advantages when working with certain clients.

It all depends on what the job requirements are. 2K (and even standard HD) is all that is required for many projects. Just like there is one market for Scarlet and another for EPIC, there is a market for Alexa. It is a beautifully designed piece of gear - and certainly has a role to play.

Never-the-less, it is important to ensure that misinformation is kept to a minimum - IMHO, the article should be revised.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Overall, a very good overview - but I need to differ with one statement:

Quoting from the article: "RED’s competition has started releasing 4K cameras, with the Arri Alexa and a Sony 4K announcement."

Never-the-less, it is important to ensure that misinformation is kept to a minimum - IMHO, the article should be revised.

done - revised to read more accurately - but if you are following that line of logic, RED ONE is not a true 4K camera either...and the point of the article wasn't to engage in academic debates over how all of the various camera companies represent their resolution. we have forums for that! :emote_hippie:

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Best kept secret of the show

Yeah, no kidding- any chance you can spill the beans? I'm dying to know more ...

 

[Michael Cioni]

A Changing Media Ecosystem

A Changing Media Ecosystem

Thank you Meryem for such a great rundown of the event last week. And thank you for the compliments of my discussion. Very flattering. You are a gifted communicator. I'm a fan.

There are few annual opportunities that I am invited to speak about products, technology, and projects (these, of course, may not always be RED specific). Because I expect that everyone in the audience may not be completely on board with certain technological philosophies, I try to widen the discussion to a more macro representation of the product, technology, or project. This way, even if you don't agree 100% with a specific subject, I'm fairly confident you will empathize with what is happening in "the big picture." I typically deliver my topics by finding facts that support my theories. Then I let those facts point back towards the subject in question (in this case, the RED camera), and then rely on the facts to do a lot of the talking.

Relying exclusively on opinions isn't necessarily bad, I just feel it narrows the number of potential people that may relate to a controversial discussion. There are a lot of opinions out there (to which I certainly have my own), but opinions are almost always tainted by bias. That is why at RED User when I deliver my annual "State of the Digital Union" I discuss issues that are recognized by just about everyone instead of just by RED Digital Cinema or RED users. For those of you that were not there, I doubt there was a recording (I hope not, since the group was asked not to record but the main points to take away from my talk were this:

1. The digital revolution has come and gone for word processing, communication, music, and home entertainment. It has not come and gone for digital cinema. Rather it has literally just begun. If you are not on the boat, start swimming to it...we're not that far from shore. Every industry used to rely on fixed media assets to represent a product. They are quickly being replaced by file-based assets, which enable products to be more versatile, faster, cheaper, readily available, and better. Apply this theory to the aforementioned industries over the course of the last decade, and you'll see the trend.
2. The beginnings of a stable 4K infrastructure is less than 24 months away. Considering the time it takes to make and release a feature film, many projects shooting 1080 in 2010 will find themselves competing with an infrastructure based around high resolution distribution in the coming years. If you shoot 1080 today, you can never prepare to release with more resolution tomorrow. Ever. Because an outlay of high resolution distribution is being put in place today, it could be considered foolish by 2020 to knowingly limit a project in 2010.
3. The future of profitable post production lies largely set. Gone are the days where dependence on the wet lab is necessary for image processing. With file based technologies, productions can record, review, compress, and ship dailies over networks or the internet for viewing & editorial all from a single mobile computer system. Steve Freebairn, Dino Georgopoulos, and I do this all the time, and the price in doing so is 15% cheaper (on average) than shipping to the lab. Not including the advantages of delivering these elements on the same day.

Light Iron finds that the best way to determine where the industry is headed is to identify where it came from. Drawing a line from the past to the present is the easiest and most logical way to prepare for the (seemingly) unknown. And I whole heartedly believe these trends are geographically agnostic, meaning you do not have to be in Los Angeles to take advantage and prepare for a brighter, more accessible future. -You can either be a part of the change or a part of the past. This is what I mean by a "changing media ecosystem." RED Users are notoriously forward thinking and therefore already make up a huge coalition of futurists that will shape the future for the better.
All that is to say the release of the Epic and Scarlet DSMC camera systems are not only a safe bet for future proofing, but are already having a huge affect on how competitors (production, post and distribution) will develop their technologies to be used by artists and consumers.

m

 

[Michael McVicar]

Thanks Michael, - I enjoyed hearing you at Red Day Hollywood and I missed what was I'm sure an excellent presentation at NAB. Was wondering about the 24 month timeline of the 4K infrastructure. Any more insight would be welcome. Hope you got some rest.

 

[Tim Morten]

done - revised to read more accurately - but if you are following that line of logic, RED ONE is not a true 4K camera either...and the point of the article wasn't to engage in academic debates over how all of the various camera companies represent their resolution. we have forums for that! :emote_hippie:

Likewise, wanted to say thanks for the write-up!

I don't think the Alexa resolution is academic though: the camera is literally only capable of delivering 2k files - it's delivery format is HD.

Red's measured resolution (shooting at 4.5k) is 4.1k, per Jim's post here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41121.

So I would point out that Red IS a 4k camera... Arri is a 2k camera, and it remains to be seen if Arri's measured resolution is even that -- but you're right that there will surely be some academic debates on that subject soon .

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

So I would point out that Red IS a 4k camera... Arri is a 2k camera, and it remains to be seen if Arri's measured resolution is even that -- but you're right that there will surely be some academic debates on that subject soon .

well - since we're all academic suddenly - RED was calling itself a 4K camera long before 4.5K was enabled...of course, there were a lot of academic debates about effective pixels and true 4K and the secret sauce of REDCODE, so it's not as if they received a "bye" entirely -

but still that shorthand worked pretty well in the world at large, even if the forum users here didn't let RED exactly get away with it...

and, as you said, Tim, surely we're about to see a whole 'nother generation of that conversation about to explode out of the gate.

I'm a geek, admittedly, but I leave those discussions to the uber-geeks...and eavesdrop respectfully.

The point of the entire paragraph in question was to say that, if the images from competing cameras are comparable -- and there is a strong possibility that this will be the case...then, everyone else is going to have trouble competing with RED on price point and feature set.

RED is doing an amazing job of projecting itself into the EPIC future, while the competition is living in a present where they appear to be trying to play catch up with RED ONE.

And hi there, Michael, I'm glad to see you on this thread and glad to know that I didn't mis-represent you - and I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on your presentation here. I've heard your talks on several occasions now and always look forward to your take on things.

I'm always impressed by the knowledge that redusers are willing to share freely. It is one of the best things about being a RED owner.

Besides the camera, that is!

 

[M Most]

I don't think the Alexa resolution is academic though: the camera is literally only capable of delivering 2k files - it's delivery format is HD.

That is one output option, available either uncompressed (via the HD-SDI spigots) or in ProRes form (via the SxS card recording module). The other output option - delivered via the same spigots configured for T-Link - is Arri RAW, which gives you a Bayer record that is 3072x1728. So by Red's own terminology, the Alexa is actually more of a 3K camera than it is 2K.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks for sharing Michael! Was great seeing you guys in VEGAS in such great spirits.
The future and present is so very exciting!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Academics - ARRIRAW

Academics - ARRIRAW

That is one output option, available either uncompressed (via the HD-SDI spigots) or in ProRes form (via the SxS card recording module). The other output option - delivered via the same spigots configured for T-Link - is Arri RAW, which gives you a Bayer record that is 3072x1728. So by Red's own terminology, the Alexa is actually more of a 3K camera than it is 2K.

I hesitate sending this into this thread (After all, Meryem's article is still the best recap of the REDUser event), so please consider this diversion splitting hairs:


According to the Technical Data page in ARRI's published Alexa brochure, while the "Monitoring with surround area" is 3168 x 1782 Pixels,
the recordable ARRIRAW output is limited to 2880 x 1620 Pixels. :violin:


And, since the Alexa ALEV III sensor will be released in the same time frame as Mysterium-X is being delivered, any fair comparison should be between those two sensors - not earlier versions.

 

[Michael Brennan]

According to the Technical Data page in ARRI's published Alexa brochure, while the "Monitoring with surround area" is 3168 x 1782 Pixels,
the recordable ARRIRAW output is limited to 2880 x 1620 Pixels. :violin:
.

If I understand Arri correctly, the Alexa OV will "use" full height, aimed at anamorphic production.
Have yet to see if or how this is sampled and if so, will it be to 2880x1620 or more?


Mike Brennan

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

Hi Miltos - here is my overview of new developments, based on info gleaned at the RED user event, hope it helps.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/science_n_technology/red-digital-cinema-the-nab-2010-event.html

Thanks Meryem. It was well written.

 

[James Brundige]

2nd best kept secret of the show

2nd best kept secret of the show

Best kept secret of the show

Thanks Meryem for the great summary. It was nice to meet you at the party. And, as you said, an incredible opportunity to stand around with Jim, Jared, and Ted, and understand more about the Red phenomenon, both people and equipment.

The biggest Epic mystery for me is recording media. Not much said, so I assume it's a work in progress. But since it's pretty key, I will continue my quest for information.

Here's what I gather (pardon the speculation):

There will be two SSD module options, one for a 1.8 " drive (like an ipod drive), one for 2.5 " drive (laptop size drive). Jim said these will be like the CF cards, in that third parties options may be possible but certainly less reliable than the Red branded versions. No pricing announced, but you can research the price of the best and fastest of these media, and imagine the additional cost of a Red manufactured housing and firmware. Capacities seem to run from 64 Gb to 512 Gb.

In response to my question, Jared indicated that the first supported storage will be the 64 Gb CF cards, followed by the smaller SSD module.