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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Will there ever be a Scarlet?

Nick D said:
Red's best advice has been to advise the Scarlet waiters to go away for a proven product THAT WORKS TODAY...

Now that Panasonic and Sony (and Canon coming shortly...) are aiming at the $5-10K independent filmmaker space as just announced at NAB,
you'll have plenty of options if Red's approach is less than your cup of tea-
Remember, they OWE you nothing...

Either way, expect the Scarlet variants by NAB 2011 in volume and potential price reductions
if the serious competition and A/B shootouts don't go their way...

April 2011 NAB comparison footage will be better than watching Godzilla take on King Kong on Beta...

:emote_popcorn:
Click to expand...

Haven't seen any serious competition offerings yet if highest image quality in a compact practical field camera is the benchmark.

Canon's new camcorders are still 1/3" though I am sure much improved.
New Panasonic 4/3 camcorder is Gh1 based technology in a new package. OLPF to reduce aliasing, AVCHD long GOP codec at a little higher bit rate, 24mb/s vs 17mb/s and camcorder format and audio features. Nothing to write home about there. As Panasonic's spokesperson said in one interview, it is designed to meet a <$6k target price. So no Intra codec or P2 recording capability.
Nobody has even suggested anything shooting raw motion at beyond HD resolutions like the RED's except for ARRI.
If all you are interested in is bottom of the barrel HD video quality at a low price then maybe the DSLR's and their offspring will do.
 
David Rasberry said:
Haven't seen any serious competition offerings yet if highest image quality in a compact practical field camera is the benchmark.

Canon's new camcorders are still 1/3" though I am sure much improved.
New Panasonic 4/3 camcorder is Gh1 based technology in a new package. OLPF to reduce aliasing, AVCHD long GOP codec at a little higher bit rate, 24mb/s vs 17mb/s and camcorder format and audio features. Nothing to write home about there. As Panasonic's spokesperson said in one interview, it is designed to meet a <$6k target price. So no Intra codec or P2 recording capability.
Nobody has even suggested anything shooting raw motion at beyond HD resolutions like the RED's except for ARRI.
If all you are interested in is bottom of the barrel HD video quality at a low price then maybe the DSLR's and their offspring will do.
Click to expand...


If I had $5k right now and needed a camera, I would certainly be tempted to just buy an hvx200, or perhaps something with a little better lowlight but less resolution. Sure, scarlet is completely different.. its not an HD camera, or even a 2k camera.. I get that. But you can't say nothing compares when its not out yet. We will be fortunate to see scarlet fixed rolling out by the end of the year, and the others in the months to follow. Now, i doubt that any of the mainstream manufacturing companies (canon, sony, pana, etc) are going to release anything before or soon after scarlet that is comparable... but aren't we forgetting something?

scarlet fixed is 3k crunched onto a 2/3" chip... but majority of "scarfixed" buyers are going to be distributing in 1080... at best. Sure it will be used for crashcams, but thats not the intended use of this camera.

So, if something only shoots 2k or 1080p, but does it well, it could be considered comparable to scarlet fixed, as far as the final product goes. Yes im sure scarlet's picture will be sharper, higher res even in final 1080, etc. (mystx!!!) Especially in studio conditions. Whatever its final stop range is, i'm sure that will be hard to beat too. However, when you got $1k consumer camcorders with 1/2.6" chips, it doesn't seem unfathomable that in another year we could see not only straight 1/2" chips or 3 sets of 1/2" chips, but even 2/3" from the mainstream makers selling for less than 4 grand. Of course, they won't be MystX!!!

But im curious, how much money do you think Pana and Canon make in selling their consumer models compared to $4k plus? Maybe they don't care enough... yet?


Obviously Scarlet is going to have numerous advantages, but if you were Pana and Canon and Sony, and you wanted to compete without destroying your existing market, you couldn't take the same approach and make a 3k 2/3" cam with a mysterium x type chip. Everything else within several thousand dollars would be destroyed. Better to lag behind competing with one company (Red) than sabotage your own from within.

vdslr cams have problems... but they do have nice DR... some have good lowlight. Panasonic is trying to bridge that gap... it won't be scarlet, though.
Remember, canon, sony, pana, etc, all have a customer base. As Jim has said, there are still those that think Red is a scam... and many of these people have the means to pick up an R1 today if they wanted... Imagine how long it might take for those without monetary means to come around to scarlet.

Give it 1-1/2 to 2 years.... then its comparison time.
 
My predictions.

Tatoo Scarlets - November 2010

Scarlets delivered to Original Red Owners:

1. Took delivery before June 2008 - March 2011
2. Took delivery before December 2008 - April 2011
3. Took delivery before June 2009 - August 2011
4. People that never bought a Red One - April 2012

In other words, if you want Scarlet. Find a way to buy a Red One now. Preferably a used one with early ship date that will give you their Scarlet at their cost when they receive cause they only want Epic. The first 10,000 Scarlets (at least) are for the early adopters that own a Red One or EPIC or both and want a portable companion camera not for people who've never invested in RED new or used that are on the fence between a VDSLR and a Scarlet. IMHO Red is not that concerned about that market right now. They are making Scarlet as an accessory to RED and EPIC not as a replacement. They are not going to canibalize their high-end or get in a pissing match with the 5DM2. RED is a premium brand that takes care of those who've have bet on them to date. My advice, get in line now. You ain't seen nothing yet!

-michael zaletel
 
The new Canon's and Panasonics aren't out yet either. These are all future speculations. But these companies normally announce 6 to 8 months ahead of release dates, so what was at NAB this week and what is at IBC in September will be what is available next year for the most part.

Scarlet 2/3" will be a perfect 2k delivery indie cinema camera as well as prime time TV drama camera and B-camera to the larger sensor RED's. You can't say it is not suitable for large screen use as there are a lot of features being shot on 2/3" today with far more expensiv cameras. Where the DSLR's have a small niche mainly due to compact size now, Scarlets in both formats and Epics will rule for productions with any significant budget. The generally mediocre video quality and practical operating limitations of the DSLR's won't be acceptable by comparison.

I personally like the m4/3 format a lot. It should be the logical intermediate dcine format, the S16mm if you will, between 2/3" and S35. Kudos to Panasonic for being first to the plate with a sub-$6k large sensor camcorder that supports a variety of lens formats.

David Mullen is shooting a TV series now with an MX R1 and using Sony EX cams for the compact B-cams. He didn't like the way the DSLR's tested out.
 
michael zaletel said:
My predictions.

Tatoo Scarlets - November 2010

Scarlets delivered to Original Red Owners:

1. Took delivery before June 2008 - March 2011
2. Took delivery before December 2008 - April 2011
3. Took delivery before June 2009 - August 2011
4. People that never bought a Red One - April 2012

In other words, if you want Scarlet. Find a way to buy a Red One now. Preferably a used one with early ship date that will give you their Scarlet at their cost when they receive cause they only want Epic. The first 10,000 Scarlets (at least) are for the early adopters that own a Red One or EPIC or both and want a portable companion camera not for people who've never invested in RED new or used that are on the fence between a VDSLR and a Scarlet. IMHO Red is not that concerned about that market right now. They are making Scarlet as an accessory to RED and EPIC not as a replacement. They are not going to canibalize their high-end or get in a pissing match with the 5DM2. RED is a premium brand that takes care of those who've have bet on them to date. My advice, get in line now. You ain't seen nothing yet!

-michael zaletel
Click to expand...

You are off by a year or more I think. Tattoos are going out in May according to Jim. They have had early Epic production prototypes in the field since sometime in late January, just haven't said anything about it. There won't be a Scarlet Tattoo program as Epic is serving that function. Same basic hardware and software, just less processing power.
So from the NAB conversations, 2-3 month shakedown for the Tattoos, then Epics released to production. Scarlet production to follow 2 to 3 months after that. Jim said at NAB that Scarlet is trailing by 2 months.
Jarred mentioned in another thread that they are gearing up to deliver as many as 7000 cameras a month to meet demand. The wait times won't be nearly as long as with the R1 rollout. They should be able to meet market demand with little or no waiting by NAB 2011.

In other words they are still pretty much on the estmated delivery schedule they laid out last November plus the 3-month delay for the ASIC problems. So far it seems they are past any serious hardware issues and down to refining and debugging software. Things should happen a lot quicker now.
 
michael zaletel said:
My predictions.

Tatoo Scarlets - November 2010

Scarlets delivered to Original Red Owners:

1. Took delivery before June 2008 - March 2011
2. Took delivery before December 2008 - April 2011
3. Took delivery before June 2009 - August 2011
4. People that never bought a Red One - April 2012

In other words, if you want Scarlet. Find a way to buy a Red One now. Preferably a used one with early ship date that will give you their Scarlet at their cost when they receive cause they only want Epic. The first 10,000 Scarlets (at least) are for the early adopters that own a Red One or EPIC or both and want a portable companion camera not for people who've never invested in RED new or used that are on the fence between a VDSLR and a Scarlet. IMHO Red is not that concerned about that market right now. They are making Scarlet as an accessory to RED and EPIC not as a replacement. They are not going to canibalize their high-end or get in a pissing match with the 5DM2. RED is a premium brand that takes care of those who've have bet on them to date. My advice, get in line now. You ain't seen nothing yet!

-michael zaletel
Click to expand...

What?!

I SERIOUSLY hope that's not how it goes. :out:

And I'm not sure the 2/3" Fixed would canibilize the high end market. It's more oriented to those with a tight budget, like myself, specially due to the fixed lens.

David Rasberry said:
You are off by a year. Tattoos are going out in May according to Jim. They have had early Epic production prototypes in the field since sometime in late January, just haven't said anything about it.
So from the NAB conversations, 2-3 month shakedown for the Tattoos, then Epics released to production for stage 2 & 3. Scarlet to follow 2 to 3 months after that.
Jarred mentioned in another thread that they are gearing up to deliver as many as 7000 cameras a month. The wait times won't be nearly as long as with the R1 rollout.
Click to expand...

Let's hope.
 
David Rasberry said:
You are off by a year or more. Tattoos are going out in May according to Jim. They have had early Epic production prototypes in the field since sometime in late January, just haven't said anything about it.
So from the NAB conversations, 2-3 month shakedown for the Tattoos, then Epics released to production for stage 2 & 3. Scarlet to follow 2 to 3 months after that.
Jarred mentioned in another thread that they are gearing up to deliver as many as 7000 cameras a month. The wait times won't be nearly as long as with the R1 rollout.

In other words they are still pretty much on the estmated delivery schedule they laid out last November plus the 3-month delay for the ASIC problems. So far it seems they are past any serious hardware issues and down to refining and debugging software.
Click to expand...

Man I hope YOU are right and I am wrong! But this isn't my first Rodeo. Make no assumptions about the time it will take to go from working Scarlet prototype to Tatoo Scarlet and then to mass production. Scarlet is a serious engineering challenge. I won't be disappointed with Red if there are delays to perfect, I expect them. They'll nail it, but I predict it won't be easy OR fast. Smaller is always harder.

-michael zaletel
 
As David said, Red has not published any plans for a Scarlet pilot program like Epic Tattoo. Scarlet is meant to ship in quantity to the masses on day one, and when that is will depend upon how perfectly Epic stage 2 goes.

With the exception of the fixed kit, think of Epic and Scarlet as the same car model, each with a different trim kit; the Epic is the LE Sport and the Scarlet is the Touring Edition. :-)
 
Scott Crawley said:
As David said, Red has not published any plans for a Scarlet pilot program like Epic Tattoo. Scarlet is meant to ship in quantity to the masses on day one, and when that is will depend upon how perfectly Epic stage 2 goes.

With the exception of the fixed kit, think of Epic and Scarlet as the same car model, each with a different trim kit; the Epic is the LE Sport and the Scarlet is the Touring Edition. :-)
Click to expand...

IMHO it would be a serious risk for RED to mass produce and mass ship Scarlet without substantial public testing and feedback (at least 1,000 Scarlets) for sufficient sample data. I predict they'll manufacture 1,000, get those out to pre-December-2008 early adopters and then wait a few months, make minor modifications accordingly and only then mass produce at 7,000 per month rate.

-michael zaletel
 
michael zaletel said:
My predictions.

Tatoo Scarlets - November 2010

Scarlets delivered to Original Red Owners:

1. Took delivery before June 2008 - March 2011
2. Took delivery before December 2008 - April 2011
3. Took delivery before June 2009 - August 2011
4. People that never bought a Red One - April 2012

In other words, if you want Scarlet. Find a way to buy a Red One now. Preferably a used one with early ship date that will give you their Scarlet at their cost when they receive cause they only want Epic. The first 10,000 Scarlets (at least) are for the early adopters that own a Red One or EPIC or both and want a portable companion camera not for people who've never invested in RED new or used that are on the fence between a VDSLR and a Scarlet. IMHO Red is not that concerned about that market right now. They are making Scarlet as an accessory to RED and EPIC not as a replacement. They are not going to canibalize their high-end or get in a pissing match with the 5DM2. RED is a premium brand that takes care of those who've have bet on them to date. My advice, get in line now. You ain't seen nothing yet!

-michael zaletel
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to know if you were at RED Day in Las Vegas or what other sources you used to build your scenario? From the specific and somewhat detailed group conversations I was involved in with RED people in Las Vegas, your prediction just doesn't stand up.

Spend 5 minutes with Jim Jannard and you will immediately get a sense of his determination to make all the RED cameras great and to meet his own expectations - from price to quality to schedule. People cite the prior delays with RED, from announcement to delivery, and with Epic up to this point, as evidence that RED's schedules aren't realistic. But think logically of where they are right now and where they have to go to deliver Epic and Scarlet. Epic is a working prototype. They seem to have most of the bugs worked out operationally and expect to spend a couple of months in "beta testing" with Tattoo. Jim seems very confident that once the Tatoo program gets the kinks out of Epic and that production is under way, the road to Scarlet production is about 60 days. Can things go wrong? I am sure they can, but there is a much smaller distance to the goal line than there was a year ago and that means the challaenges to getting there are fewer.

On the Scarlet user forum a couple of weeks ago I jokingly pinpointed September 20, 2010 at 9:52 PM as the moment when Scarlet's release would be announced. After RED Day in LV, I'll stick with that! :thumbup:


BTW - what are Tatoo (sic) Scarlets?
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Well... Seems like RED is not too willing on sharing definitive schedules and info on Scarlet.

I'll wait on official announcements, whenever those happen.
Click to expand...


Hey look, it only took 7 pages to arrive at wisdom this time! We're improving.
 
michael zaletel said:
IMHO it would be a serious risk for RED to mass produce and mass ship Scarlet without substantial public testing and feedback (at least 1,000 Scarlets) for sufficient sample data. I predict they'll manufacture 1,000, get those out to pre-December-2008 early adopters and then wait a few months, make minor modifications accordingly and only then mass produce at 7,000 per month rate.

-michael zaletel
Click to expand...

Where is the risk? It's the same system throttled down. Just whack a governor on the carb and send it out without the leather seats.

I would also go so far as to bet that the primary reason for a delay between Epic and Scarlet S35 releases is to allow Epic order fulfillment to proceed unimpeeded while the initial Scarlet inventory is built up.
 
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Personally, at this point, as a devoted scarlet waitee, I'm actually far more curious about the tattoo beta programme. Who are the mysterious chosen 20? And how will they be going about testing the tattoo's. What are they looking for? What constitutes bad news and what counts for good news etc. Their's may be the next breakthrough we are all waiting for.
 
NEIL ANDREW BATES said:
Personally, at this point, as a devoted scarlet waitee, I'm actually far more curious about the tattoo beta programme. Who are the mysterious chosen 20? And how will they be going about testing the tattoo's. What are they looking for? What constitutes bad news and what counts for good news etc. Their's may be the next breakthrough we are all waiting for.
Click to expand...

Well some likely Tattoo candidates I can think of are Peter Jackson, Steven Soderbergh, Steve Gibby, and Mark Pederson at Off Hollywood for starters. All early adopters and heavy users of Red 1's.
 
NEIL ANDREW BATES said:
Personally, at this point, as a devoted scarlet waitee, I'm actually far more curious about the tattoo beta programme. Who are the mysterious chosen 20? And how will they be going about testing the tattoo's. What are they looking for? What constitutes bad news and what counts for good news etc. Their's may be the next breakthrough we are all waiting for.
Click to expand...


They'll be testing them by shooting the sh$( out of them. Features, shorts, music videos. Beating them down and doing every scenario they've been wanting to do hearing the specs on it. In all areas of the world, in all temperatures, in many configurations. There will be plenty of people doing charts, and graphs, and what not. I have a feeling the chosen 20 are gonna be the ones that put the "real life dependable" stamp on it.
 
The message from PJ at RED Day was so hilarious with him teasing RED about "...don't stay in Vegas but for a day or two, because you keep teasing us with this 5K EPIC, and I have a couple of projects I'd like to do in 3D and experiment, so get back to work...". :laugh:
 
Tom.Wong said:
They'll be testing them by shooting the sh$( out of them. Features, shorts, music videos. Beating them down and doing every scenario they've been wanting to do hearing the specs on it. In all areas of the world, in all temperatures, in many configurations. There will be plenty of people doing charts, and graphs, and what not. I have a feeling the chosen 20 are gonna be the ones that put the "real life dependable" stamp on it.
Click to expand...

Correct. They said they want people who are shooting daily with them.
 
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