Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Steve Sherrick]

Nothing Personal, Rodney Charters is Fantastic artist, but he is not very technical so I am not sure why Arri chose him for marketing as he has very little technical credibility which you can see now that he is spreading wrong info already and really does not understand the words he speaks. Again, nothing personal as Rodney is a great man, but I think Arri is doing more harm than good here.

Can't see how having Rodney Charters testing with them hurts Arri. Rodney is a DP. He chooses his cameras based on a combination of quality, ergonomics, image aesthetics, and I'm sure a whole bunch of subjective reasons, just like most DPs do. Talking tech is great, can be a very good exercise, but really isn't the most important thing what these cameras produce? That's why most of us are such believers in testing, getting the camera in your hands and using it. That can tell you more than the exact technical process for achieving 13.5 stops of dynamic range. Not saying having that technical knowledge isn't useful, but really for me, I'd rather take the camera out, shoot a bunch of tests, take lots of notes on various settings, conditions, etc with footage to compare and then draw conclusions with my eyes.

These two cameras will allow people to shoot incredible images. Pick the one that suits your tastes, or fits into the production pipeline best for your project. There's nothing tricky here in my opinion. It's a very basic process. I suppose that neither camera is available to the public is what is causing all of the speculation, but still, I don't see the point in jumping on Rodney for this. Just my .02 cents. I know it's not personal but still......

 

[Michael Hastings]

just to clarify, alexa has 13.5 stops with this technique, mx has 13.5 stops without, correct?

How do we know what techniques RED is using? - have they stated anything about the new technology that enabled the major increase in DR on M-X?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Nothing Personal, Rodney Charters is Fantastic artist, but he is not very technical so I am not sure why Arri chose him for marketing[...]

Same reason I spend more time listening to other artists than programmers when evaluating software.

Eventually someone has to use it. And the best feature in the world which nobody can get to work well is useless.

If you're shopping for a hammer you look for the glowing endorsement from a framer or carpenter not a physicist.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

I think people are totally not getting how great it is having Arri and RED in
the same forum, and being able to learn the different systems AND having some top DP´s testing them out and answering questions.... instead people are arguing about who said what and yadadadadada.... kindergarten....

 

[Peter Rollins]

The ARRI Losen is going to be an interesting camera, is it 4k or 5k? I have heard rumors of both. Does anyone know if they will show it at NAB?

Anybody know the frame rates it will shoot? It sounds like the Alexa is going after the Red 1 and the Losen is going after the Epic. Interesting times for us shooters, it is nice having some options out there.

 

[Phil Jordan]

The ARRI Losen is going to be an interesting camera, is it 4k or 5k? I have heard rumors of both. Does anyone know if they will show it at NAB?

Anybody know the frame rates it will shoot? It sounds like the Alexa is going after the Red 1 and the Losen is going after the Epic. Interesting times for us shooters, it is nice having some options out there.

I've heard it will be called Losung which means resolution in German? I also heard that the guy that convinced Arri that 1080P was still good enough for Alexa was fired a few months ago.

 

[Dan Kanes]

You guys are going all out with the twitter/facebook presence and hyping up the Alexa outing. Interesting and good to see but it's starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth that's very un-Arri like. It's not the stately ARRI I've grown up to love and respect. Bill Benett's twitter page reads as if it's contrived. I'm not sure what to make of this. It is intentional? A response to Red?

I'm not sure if the new face of Arri as you are describing it is necessarily a response to Red - but probably an adaptation to what the state of contemporary advertising and communication has become.

I'd rather have Arri present a more contemporary presence and attract the eye of people who are just beginning to shoot films now - people who grew up not knowing what a world without cell phones, immediate internet access, and social networking was like. While I find Twittering and the like Annoying and fairly unprofessional seeming - it's better to have a Glasnost sort of open-door policy to people who use the tools than a shitty corporate closed door persona like Canon. Canon is so full of BS. They are so afraid to make a move and to connect to people using their products it is ridiculous.

Props to Arri and Props to Red. Boo to Canon.

 

[Michael Hastings]

i like having alexa and epic. but what i dont like is that rumours are spread by mouthpropaganda:
things like,
arris 800 asa are real 800 asa ( matching the lightmeter)-mx is more a 500 asa cam.
arris 13,5 stops are 13,5 usuable stops...mx has a usuable range of 10,5 to 11 stops.
arris body/assecoires will be more reliable, pointing to R1 ass. quality.
arris pl mount will not have problems with heat and backfocus

michael never said this i know, but i live and work in arri land germany.


but you cant do something against rumours except educate people.

This is what comes of overspeculation on products that don't actually exist yet, combined with some people's attitude that there has to be winners and losers.

The truth is that there are rental houses that won't flinch at a $70K price tag because they will generate 10 or 20 times that with clients that already rent the earlier models and may prefer the Arri even for very minor reasons - so the $40K price difference is meaningless - for them it is not how much you spend it's how much you make. They usually have ready access to financing so it isn't a difficult decision for them. And the same goes for many larger production companies because they are more comfortable with their existing workflows, security of dealing with a worldwide network of a 90 year old company, etc. and don't really see a need for beyond 1080 resolution for future proofing.

Yet for many of us a $30K Epic will make much more sense because we are using savings, or home equity, or limited financing resources and may only use the system sporadically but prefer the flexibility of owning, so a $40K price difference is huge. And we are much more flexible in terms of workflow, deadlines, uncertainty of deliveries, etc. As such, I am eagerly awaiting Epic-X #206 and an Arri camera isn't even a consideration. But it doesn't mean I don't also recognize the value of what ARRI offers their customers, or that I wouldn't enjoy using one of their cameras if the situation arose.

It's not just "horses for courses". When purchasing a camera (as opposed to renting on a per project basis) it is a complex gestalt of economics, technical needs, risk tolerance, etc. And it is clear to me that at least for the foreseeable future (i.e. next two years) RED is well positioned to sell at least 5 to 10 thousand Epics which should be enough to keep them healthy. If they can leverage their expertise to expand into the highend market beyond that or to become a major player in the prosumer/consumer/industrial markets with Scarlet then all the better.

But I just don't see the need for the "us or them" mentality.

From what I have seen it seems clear to me that at the very least Epic is going to offer us phenomenal resolution, superb DR, high frame rates, robust mechanics, numerous lens choices, and an affordable price. With all that does it really matter much what else is out there?

 

[Matthias Martin]

Um, no, "Losung" means "Daily Watchword" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Watchwords, a little red book that reads "Losungen" on the cover, but Google doesn't turn up anything, so it most probably is due to someone misreading "Lösung"; "Arri Lösung" means "Arri Solution" - a solution to a problem, that is, not re-solution.
What a really, really silly rumour...

 

[Grady Wilson]

Losung is the right name and i heard they even mention the name in one of the earlier Alexa brochures. It is 4K from what I was told and that they are going to show the sensor at NAB but the prototypes are still being brought up as we speak.

Remember back at IBC there was a video of someone talking about this, I believe it was the crazy white haired man that looks like he should be doing animal planet shows.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Alexa dumps an old technology

Alexa dumps an old technology

Shot on R1-M with vintage (1962) Leica Summaron M 35mm f/2.8 @ f/5.6, 4.5K, 320 ISO, 1/50 shutter, 5600K.

(1962) Leica Summaron M 35mm on RED1.

Alexa is pretty expensive, "slightly heavy" and also is trying to dump an old HD technology in the field and zone of RED customers.

Probably I would not jump right now to get that "Trojan Horse" from ARRI as an oldest camera maker but actually that is still

not ready to follow the latest trends in digital acquisition world that is 4K.

ARRI and Sony both need a bit more time to get in 4K train and for ARRI Alexa is just a transition camera.

Maybe at the next NAB 2011.

So be aware of this ALEXA fact whatever Michael Bravin, Rodney Charters or who else tells you probably different.

I'm happy R1 user that enjoy to make 4.5K digital acquisition of my little world using the best still or cine glass (new and vintage).

Would I be able to do it with Alexa?

Maybe but then it would cost me a fortune just to get 2K max...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Sanjin, I hate to say it but your posts often represent what I was talking about in my previous posts. Don't see how they are very helpful - not much intellectual "dynamic range" so to speak.

And how many shots of charts with old Leica lenses (indistinguishable here from what they would like like if shot with old Pentax, Nikon, Zeiss, etc. lenses.) do we need?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

sanjin can you please stop to bash arris alexa. it will be a great cam for sure.
but its existance doesnt reduce reds DR suddenly. i know that arri is much more nervous then it seems....

back to topic:
and lösung is solution, its overly used in ads here in germany, so its not a codename or so.

its more like the mercedes lösung for safe driving, or the bmw solution for speed driving etc.... arri solution for whatever

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, I hate to say it but your posts often represent what I was talking about in my previous posts. Don't see how they are very helpful - not much intellectual "dynamic range" so to speak.

And how many shots of charts with old Leica lenses (indistinguishable here from what they would like like if shot with old Pentax, Nikon, Zeiss, etc. lenses.) do we need?

Michael it's nothing "intellectual" here in this discussion because simply is what you can get even with the best vintage glass on R1.

sanjin can you please stop to bash arris alexa. it will be a great cam for sure.
but its existance doesnt reduce reds DR suddenly. i know that arri is much more nervous then it seems....

back to topic:
and lösung is solution, its overly used in ads here in germany, so its not a codename or so.

its more like the mercedes lösung for safe driving, or the bmw solution for speed driving etc.... arri solution for whatever

Kaya,

I'm not "bashing" Alexa at all.

Opposite of that I'm talking facts about Alexa that are mostly right now hidden or still not visible.

You can take it or leave it and there are nothing personally because it's a camera forum discussion only.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

+1 I am pretty sure we all love your passion SJ, but as of late I would think you could represent this community a bit better. You might not be trying to, but you are coming across as crass, at least to me, only as of late, only on this subject.

I can totally understand voicing the true color of your concerns... But we got your point. The only thing that it may be achieving now is a bad name, for you, and for the unsuspecting first-time RedUser reader.

I think you are just passionate, and perhaps made too big of an investment into that sweet expresso maker of yours but others might drop in and only read key words like Alexa, and all the fancy names you've been coming up with.

Not trying to tell you how to talk, I wouldn't dream of doing that! Just trying to make you're how it has been registering on the other side, at least mine.

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Great article and test.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

+1 I am pretty sure we all love your passion SJ, but as of late I would think you could represent this community a bit better. You might not be trying to, but you are coming across as crass, at least to me, only as of late, only on this subject.

I can totally understand voicing the true color of your concerns... But we got your point. The only thing that it may be achieving now is a bad name, for you, and for the unsuspecting first-time RedUser reader.

I think you are just passionate, and perhaps made too big of an investment into that sweet expresso maker of yours but others might drop in and only read key words like Alexa, and all the fancy names you've been coming up with.

Not trying to tell you how to talk, I wouldn't dream of doing that! Just trying to make you're how it has been registering on the other side, at least mine.

I know that getting the facts in right order is taking so long...

 

[Tim Morten]

It's been said, but we should all be glad for competition when it comes to image quality - it's a sign that Red is being the disruptive influence they set out to be, and driving the industry forward. I may have no plans to spend the $$, but I'm still glad that Arri and Aaton are making an effort to join the party.

Which camera will be best (if there really is one right answer to that question)? Seems like the proof will be in the images. If Arri and Aaton can demonstrate that they have a visual edge, then they will have customers. Even if they can't, for this generation there is a certain audience who will buy them strictly based on their brand equity.

This is a Red forum, and like many here, my bet is on Red delivering category-leading images at a price that puts Arri and Aaton to shame, and this time around I believe the work-flow will be category-leading to match. Maybe Alexa's DR will be as good, or even slightly better... we'll see. We know for a fact that Alexa's resolution will be nowhere close, and by the time the next camera is real, who knows what Red will be up to? Advantage: Red.

Perhaps Aaton's uncompressed approach will yield some visual edge (though RC250 makes that unlikely)... we'll see. Final details on DR and resolution are unknown at this point (as far as I know), but it seems questionable whether DR will be at the level of Red and Arri. What we do know is that unless Aaton announces some compression options, the Aaton workflow is going to be painful. Advantage: Red.

For BOTH Arri and Aaton, we know that they can't compete on price. Not even close. Advantage: Red.

Competition is good... kudos to Arri and Aaton both. Personally, I'll be placing my Epic-X order as soon as I get the e-mail .

- Tim

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I know that getting the facts in right order is taking so long...

Not sure I understand. Are you saying that your frustration comes from specs not being out in the open?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Back on topic, I just don't understand how manipulation of a signal increases DR, other than through downconversion where you get to average out some of the noise.

Does anyone understand how this separate gain step increases DR? I am at a loss...

It really sounds like an analog curve if anything, which could make the response more the way ARRI may like it to be...

...but how does this increase DR??

Looks like Michael is busy with the Alexa program, so could someone else that might understand this technique jump in and explain?