Arri DR Test...

[Travis Freeburg]

This is all off topic anyway, so I don't feel bad about throwing this out there.

In normal economics, I would agree completely with the thinking that display technology needs to be pushed especially on the consumer level. It was only in the last few years that broadcast television in the U.S. became entirely digital, which was the barrier that seemed to slow down the mass influx of tv technology.

However, the U.S. and the rest of the world is facing a Global economic crisis. This is not something that already happened, rather, the numbers and data show it getting worse. Media is one of a few factors that actually directly affect the timing of... if it arrives, a depression.

Regardless, the consumers buying $1200 TV sets are the middle class. In an economic crisis, the middle class is hurt most, even destroyed in worst case scenarios. If you want to look realistically at the progress of technology over the next ten years, keep this possibility in mind.

In the last ten years, technology has jumped amazing heights. What if it was slowed or setback for ten years due to lack of demand?

Ok, enough rambling. Red is my hero, because I love cameras, and I'm middle class.

I think Red will push the HDTV and indie blue-ray scene along for a long time before we see consumer 4k displays.. and by then, Monstro will be like having a scarlet.

 

[Dan Kanes]

This is all off topic anyway, so I don't feel bad about throwing this out there.

In normal economics, I would agree completely with the thinking that display technology needs to be pushed especially on the consumer level. It was only in the last few years that broadcast television in the U.S. became entirely digital, which was the barrier that seemed to slow down the mass influx of tv technology.

However, the U.S. and the rest of the world is facing a Global economic crisis. This is not something that already happened, rather, the numbers and data show it getting worse. Media is one of a few factors that actually directly affect the timing of... if it arrives, a depression.

Regardless, the consumers buying $1200 TV sets are the middle class. In an economic crisis, the middle class is hurt most, even destroyed in worst case scenarios. If you want to look realistically at the progress of technology over the next ten years, keep this possibility in mind.

In the last ten years, technology has jumped amazing heights. What if it was slowed or setback for ten years due to lack of demand?

Ok, enough rambling. Red is my hero, because I love cameras, and I'm middle class.

I think Red will push the HDTV and indie blue-ray scene along for a long time before we see consumer 4k displays.. and by then, Monstro will be like having a scarlet.

Now to veer completely Off Topic, I would argue that the economic reflex that we are seeing today is actually a result of three key events that took place nearly Ten Years ago -

1.The "Election" of George W. Bush as U.S. President set into motion a growing divide between the Upper Class and the Lower Class - many Bush Era policies favored corporations and the already wealthy.
2. The September 11th Attacks on the World Trade Centers - while War and Terrorism sometimes create small spikes in demand for entertainment, widespread fear and panic as well as the focus of The Military Industrial Complex on creating war machines distracts from technological development and consumer purchasing power for "want" rather than "need" items.
3.The War in Iraq/War on Terror - further distracted from technological (and eco-technological) development. Who cares about developing better or more ecological technology when we MUST WIN A WAR!

Things to think about - and I'm certainly not going DEEP into every factor but I am arguing there is a direct correlation between the events from 2000/2001 that have hindered technological and entertainment advancement.:conehead:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

In normal economics, I would agree completely with the thinking that display technology needs to be pushed especially on the consumer level.

[SNIP]

However, the U.S. and the rest of the world is facing a Global economic crisis.

[SNIP]

I agree that economics can (and might) change behaviors as you point out. However, that doesn't mean it will change preferences which is how this discussion got started. So, even if your assessment about an interruption in the broader behavioral pattern is correct, when the economic crisis passes and behavior again aligns with preferences, people will return to to choosing the better visual experience. Since we can't predict the exact timing on that (and I am an optimist), I am willing to see any interruption as a temporary thing and act accordingly. Long live 4K and more! :thumbup:

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Something to fuel the discussion, c/p from a DVD Intelligence news item.

Demonstrations of the transmission of ultra-high definition (UHD) content over broadband and satellite networks at the IBC 2008 kicked off speculation about the time frame for the possible commercialization of UHD broadcasts to the home.

In its latest report, In-Stat market research analysts expect the total installed base of UHDTVs Europe to approach 5% household penetration by 2021, and increase to over 28.2% penetration by 2025.

As originally proposed, UHD comes in two levels of resolution: 7680 x 4320 pixels representing 33.2 megapixels per viewing screen (i.e., 8K resolution), and 3840 x 2160 pixels representing 8.3 megapixels per viewing screen (i.e., 4K resolution). These UHD formats provide between four and sixteen times the resolution of Blu-ray or 1080p high definition.

In-Stat believes the commercialization time frame for both 4K and 8K UHDTVs will follow the implementation and deployment of several UHD-related or -enabling technologies in three segments of the media and entertainment value chain. First, digital cinemas will expose consumers to high resolution content. Then, UHDTVs will be made available through retail outlets to provide a similar digital cinema high resolution viewing experience in the home. Last, broadcasters will start offering UHD content to an addressable market of UHDTVs between 2017 and 2022.

In-Stat believes there will be a lengthy time period before the UHD market reaches a critical mass of 5% household penetration. “However, as the initial market debuts over the next five to ten years, there will be ample opportunities for technology companies, manufacturers, service providers and media companies to experiment with business models and strategies to make UHD a strong business in the long term,” says Michelle Abraham, In-Stat analyst.

 

[Travis Freeburg]

Now to veer completely Off Topic, I would argue that the economic reflex that we are seeing today is actually a result of three key events that took place nearly Ten Years ago -

1.The "Election" of George W. Bush as U.S. President set into motion a growing divide between the Upper Class and the Lower Class - many Bush Era policies favored corporations and the already wealthy.
2. The September 11th Attacks on the World Trade Centers - while War and Terrorism sometimes create small spikes in demand for entertainment, widespread fear and panic as well as the focus of The Military Industrial Complex on creating war machines distracts from technological development and consumer purchasing power for "want" rather than "need" items.
3.The War in Iraq/War on Terror - further distracted from technological (and eco-technological) development. Who cares about developing better or more ecological technology when we MUST WIN A WAR!

Things to think about - and I'm certainly not going DEEP into every factor but I am arguing there is a direct correlation between the events from 2000/2001 that have hindered technological and entertainment advancement.:conehead:

I think im gonna get yelled at for continuing this... But please do consider the fact that our current financial problems are actually a result of a whole slew of choices made long before Bush SENIOR was even in office.

Inflation was at 0% for over 100 years. civil war bumped it up a little, then the 20th century saw world wars and a cold war that bumped it up so much that nixon takes us off the gold standard. inflation skyrockets since then. etc etc etc.


Terry:

You've reworded it correctly, i believe. My only reason for bringing this into the discussion was that I believe it is a realistic possibility that this interruption of the normal development of technology could last several years, or at least have a total impact equaling several years. In some ways, I see a personal positive side. If my XL1 is still an event-recording useful camera 10 - 12 years later, then with a development slowdown, scarlet cinema could easily be useful far longer than originally expected.

Okydoke. Petri has some good stuff. I think it backs up my opinion though. 10 years before 5% in Europe? forgetting economics, Indie's will be pushing 1080 blueray for 15 years at least at that rate. In the digital end, they're all still majorly DVD anyway. How old is DVD now?

 

[David Rasberry]

1080p consumer displays still have less than 25% market penetration. I don't think we will see anything beyond it for a very long time except for the high end tweek market. Next big consumer display push will be 3D.

 

[Joe G.]

"Things to think about - and I'm certainly not going DEEP into every factor..."

Well if you're going to get into historical factors pertaining to the sharp decline in the US -- for the many -- there are some other key points which are as yet unstated.

- Neoliberal "free trade" policies, including NAFTA and GATT began the wholesale "outsourcing" of US manufacturing jobs. By making it cheaper to make and ship goods thousands of miles away, than to hire local US workers, the US began a downward spiral from which it may never emerge.

- The treasonous creation of the Federal Reserve (sic / "no more federal than Federal Express") system in 1913, passed in Congress over the Christmas holiday when everyone went home, basically insured that Americans would be debt slaves for the indefinite future. The current "national debt" is upwards of $13 Trillion, and "debt service", meaning interest payments on this money will cripple the country.

- The "Military Industrial Complex" has been mentioned. The global empire of 1,000 military bases (give or take) on other people's soil has not. The Pentagon has never passed an audit, and at last count they were missing $2.3 Trillion of taxpayer money. How about we find that money?

- Repeal of Glass/Steagal by some of the same Criminals In Charge (CIC) today directly led to the derivatives bubble, fraudulent crime wave on Wall Street, the collapse of markets, and the "bailouts" (looting of the treasury) to give a certain class of investors their money back, even though they lost it by their own greed and stupidity.

 

[Scott Crawley]

What was the title of this thread again? It was about a camera or something cinema, I think.

 

[Martin Stevens]

OK it's time to stop the........:jacked::jacked::jacked:

 

[richard peterson]

N
Things to think about - and I'm certainly not going DEEP advancement.:conehead:

don't worry help is on the way . The IRS is set to hire over 17,000 new employees to keep the wealthy inline. I for one feel much better knowing the feds are hiring all the extra man power.

 

[Travis Freeburg]

1080p consumer displays still have less than 25% market penetration. I don't think we will see anything beyond it for a very long time except for the high end tweek market. Next big consumer display push will be 3D.

I so deeply wanted to respond to richard's post about feds jumping in, but this sidetrack has gone on long enough.

David, I agree wholeheartedly that 3d is the next push. It's got some buzz in the Playstation 3 corner too I believe.

Scarlet is the affordable camera solution. Indie makers will do whatever they need to do to get their hands on one or two. Their output of choice? Internet, and dvd. Blueray comes in time, but is still a rarity for those who aren't shooting film.

They won't give a crap about dynamic range... So It's really EPIC vs Arri. The pros. Pros are doing a lot of 3d work these days... aren't they?

Give me a scarlet and an optical fiber internet connection. Im satisfied.

Can't decide between EPIC and Arri? if you can afford Arri, you can buy 1 of each and shoot with both for a few projects... do a little mix and max. For the guy on the "focus wheel", it sounds like its going to be more preference than anything. I think this Dynamic range chart from Arri is a great way to build marketing for both Red and Arri.


Competition... variety... thats what Jim said, right? Now we have options.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm an indie who gives a crap about DR.

 

[Travis Freeburg]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm an indie who gives a crap about DR.

sorry, i was thinking in the context that either the competition won't come close or it will be so close that the extra .2 stops or so isn't going to be a huge deal. In the indie world, I would suspect that camera's like Scarlet will make price and resolution among the biggest factors.

28 days later had what... an 11 million dollar budget? And it was shot mostly on Xl1's with DOF adapters, then converted to film, right? So... the director chose the camcorders... for mobility and expense, I imagine.

The point I was thinking about was that Big buyers of Red are in the Indie world.... and one very, very big reason that Red is popular with Indie's is the Price.

Hollywood will do whatever it wants... they can afford to, typically. Indie makers will buy red, even if it came out a stop lower than Arri, if they're budget is small enough for cost to be a factor.

 

[Álex Montoya]

And it was shot mostly on Xl1's with DOF adapters

Nope, no DOF adpaters.

 

[Daniel Valle]

Yeah, I have to say I'm also an indie with serious need for extra DR.

I'm not sure at this point, but wouldn't Scarlet S35/F35 be on the same level (if not better) than Alexa?

One of the things that attract me most about Scarlet is being able to own my pro gear, so that I can have more shooting days in a given project.

More money goes into what is in front of the camera, rather than what's behind.

That's something that Alexa will not afford me.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Travis,

You're right about one thing; competition is good, and more options are always welcome.

BTW, "the guy on the focus wheel" has a title worthy of respect. He is usually the First Camera Assistant, aka 1st AC, sometimes called a Focus Puller.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Yeah, I have to say I'm also an indie with serious need for extra DR.

I'm not sure at this point, but wouldn't Scarlet S35/F35 be on the same level (if not better) than Alexa?

One of the things that attract me most about Scarlet is being able to own my pro gear, so that I can have more shooting days in a given project.

More money goes into what is in front of the camera, rather than what's behind.

That's something that Alexa will not afford me.

Your points about value for money are valid, but you are also confusing things somewhat when you mix the two issues up -- i.e. whether the S35 Scarlet and the Alex are better or worse than each other is a separate issue as to whether one is a better value financially than the other.

As for the first issue, you are comparing two cameras that aren't on the market yet to be compared, which is limiting -- all you can look at is gross specs, not actual performance.

My guess, which is totally unscientific and arbitrary, is that the differences are:

S35 Scarlet = more resolution (5K vs. 3.5K... though the resolution of the Alexa will be competitive with current filmmaking needs & trends)

Alexa = more sensitivity (though both seem to work great at 800 ASA and higher, so it's only in the ridiculous realms of over 3200 ASA that you may see an advantage with Alexa).

The Scarlet will be smaller physically than the Alexa, or at least, can be configured to a lower profile.

So far, ARRIRAW output will be uncompressed for recording; for the indie filmmaker, that may be a disadvantage, for the efx supervisor, that may be an advantage. It's a bit of an unknown until some comparisons are made in a wide variety of post scenarios. I suspect a lot of indie people will find recording and posting uncompressed 3K RAW a bit daunting.

The most expensive version of the Alexa will have a 4x3 sensor and an optical viewfinder. In fact, in that situation, using a 2X anamorphic lens on the 4x3 camera, there will be less horizontal cropping on the Alexa versus the 2:1 Scarlet sensor to get the 2X anamorphic image back to 2.40, probably making the resolution about the same.

Other unknowns: dynamic range, color reproduction, physical robustness & reliability. I suspect that the ARRI will be a more solid piece of construction overall but that's one of the reasons you are paying more for it.

Now whether the differences fall into a "these are rather similar so the main difference is cost" sort of mental calculation is unknown.

I suspect that the much lower price of the Scarlet S35 will make it much more popular for the private owner/operator, especially those on a budget, whereas the ARRI will sell well to rental houses. For those people with deep pockets, the bigger question is Alexa versus Epic.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

As I said, my opinion on this is very speculative and cannot really be supported by facts, since neither camera is available to test against each other, so don't take much stock in what I'm saying. It was a wild guess, which is all any of us are doing. It's like playing imaginary football teams against each other at this point based on the stats of a few known players.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Alexa and Epic is the big question.

As to Davids post, I started to think about whether ther will be significant build quality differences between Scarlet and Epic.

I sometimes dislike the weight of a full RED ONE kit. But I love its robustness.

Will Epic be aliminum and Scarlet plastic?

Sidenote...

Important thing is that this seems to become the most interesting year of digital cinema cameras since... well... since Red One became available.

Cheers!

G

 

[Travis Freeburg]

I suspect that the much lower price of the Scarlet S35 will make it much more popular for the private owner/operator, especially those on a budget, whereas the ARRI will sell well to rental houses. For those people with deep pockets, the bigger question is Alexa versus Epic.

Basically the point that my fragmented thoughts were trying to convey... Epic vs Scarlet... if you're buying scarlet, its cause of the cost. Sure, DR might matter, but not enough to give you the extra cash...

I'm sure scarlet's DR will be absolutely amazing for the price range.

Alex: (sorry, no accent mark) No DOF adapters!?? I'm amazed.. and inspired.
.. but are software alternatives good enough?

Scott: I mean't no disrespect to the Cam Assists... my point was that they are the ones that truly operate the cams. If they can use both Arri and Red equally well, great. If one over the other, that would be a deciding factor in being hired for projects, right?