On 48 frames per second...

[Andrew Phillip]

With the release of the Scarlet and Epic on the horizon (far or near? who knows) I had a question regarding shooting on these systems at 48FPS instead of the standard 24FPS. Will these new cameras allow this kind of thing and will NLE's such as FCP allow one to edit at 48FPS? Would their be any audio issues involved, etc. I would love to hear about this from someone who knows more about this than i do.

Cheers

 

[brian hanson]

i seem to remember reading a james cameron interview in which he claimed that 48fps would be ideal. the hvx200 can shoot 48fps at 720p and you can edit it in fcp without a hitch, i am also curious as to how audio would come into play.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

48 frames per secod is no problem for the 2/3 Scarlet. It can go as fast as 120 frames per second. Editing is not a problem but distribution is. you cannot have that framerate if you are going for theatrical (unless it is a digital projector, then it should not be a problem). I will tell you one thing for sure, it will look strange, like a sitcom, hardly filmic. I can understand why it would be good for 3D but it makes no sense for traditional shooting unless you wants slow motion, where 48 fps would be inadequate.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

With the advancement of 3D techniques and 24fps cadence becoming rather inconvenient... I can see the definition of filmic changing quickly.

While I agree that 24fps cadence has a beautiful look to it, I also agree that frame rate should be a creative choice.

That's the beauty of digital cinema.

 

[Andrew Phillip]

Editing is not a problem but distribution is. you cannot have that framerate if you are going for theatrical .

Well you could just skip-print to generate a 24FPS DI, I think (any corrections on this are welcome).

And I don't think you can directly compare it to television sitcoms, which are 60FPS.

 

[brian hanson]

wondering whether or not you'll be able to capture audio in camera while overcranking with the scarlet, any guesses?

 

[Chris Luker]

wondering whether or not you'll be able to capture audio in camera while overcranking with the scarlet, any guesses?

I sure hope so... I don't see why not.

 

[Andrew Gentle]

Well you could just skip-print to generate a 24FPS DI, I think (any corrections on this are welcome).

It would still look a bit stroby because of the 180° shutter being 1/96 for 48fps whereas it should be 1/48 for 24 fps.

 

[Matt Steinauer]

Maybe it would be best to shoot at a 360 degree shutter at 48 fps so if you extract every other frame you have the equivalent of 180 degree shutter.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

360 degree shutter is possible? When does the camera read the data from sensor and reset? I don't think the shutter can go that wide.

 

[Matt Steinauer]

360 degree shutter works for me.

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

i seem to remember reading a james cameron interview in which he claimed that 48fps would be ideal. the hvx200 can shoot 48fps at 720p and you can edit it in fcp without a hitch, i am also curious as to how audio would come into play.

But the HVX200 isn't shooting 48fps to be played back at 48fps. It's shooting 48fps over a 24, 30, or 60fps timebase for various slow/quick motion effects.

So what you are editing in FCP isn't really 48fps. It's 24, 30, or 60fps footage that was recorded off-speed at 48fps.

I'm not sure what the benefit of 48fps playback would be except for possibly 3D.

Footage played back at 48fps isn't going to look closer to 24p footage than 30p or 60p. It's just going to be somewhere between 30p and 60p in terms of smoothness of motion.

 

[Charles Angus]

It would still look a bit stroby because of the 180° shutter being 1/96 for 48fps whereas it should be 1/48 for 24 fps.

No, I don't think so, because it's 48 fps. Stutter is frame rate dependent as well as shutter dependent.

If you are concerned about extracting 24fps, you could (as suggested) shoot 360° shutter.

360 degree shutter is possible? When does the camera read the data from sensor and reset? I don't think the shutter can go that wide.

Well, it is possible on pretty much every digital video camera I've used, including the RED One. Perhaps it is actually 359.999 and they call it 360, but it's a normal option. It is also sometimes called "Shutter Off".

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Shooting 48 fps with a 180 shutter (1/96 exposure per frame) and then removing every other frame looks identical to shooting at 24 fps with a 90 degree shutter (1/96 exposure per frame.)

The shutter time alone accounts for the amount of motion blur per frame, but of course frame rate affects that shutter time. But if you match the shutter time, then the amount of blur is the same.

You could shoot 48 fps with a 360 shutter (1/48th per frame) but then you're losing one of the reasons why 48 fps shooting and projection looks better -- that you get less blur and thus more general sharpness without getting more strobing because of the higher frame rate.

You could digitally combine every two frames of 48 fps / 180 degree capture and thus end up with a 24 fps / 180 degree look (the blur of two 1/96 sequential frames added together creating a 1/48th amount of total blur more or less)... but what's the point if you only end up getting to release the movie in 24 fps? It only makes sense if you can be assured of a decent number of theaters showing the 48 fps version.

 

[Keith Putnam]

360 degree shutter is possible? When does the camera read the data from sensor and reset? I don't think the shutter can go that wide.

Shooting with a "360 degree shutter" at 24fps just means that each frame is being exposed for 1/24 of one second instead of the 1/48th sec. exposure a frame receives with the 180 degree shutter setting. This would be less confusing for you if you told the camera to display the exposure time as fractions of a second rather than degrees of nonexistent shutter angle. As framerate increases you will eventually reach a point at which you do exceed the reset speed of the sensor.

 

[David Quinn Carder]

With the advancement of 3D techniques and 24fps cadence becoming rather inconvenient... I can see the definition of filmic changing quickly.

While I agree that 24fps cadence has a beautiful look to it, I also agree that frame rate should be a creative choice.

That's the beauty of digital cinema.

this ^



Personally, I plan to shoot at the highest frame rate I can, and since I'm initially planning to release online, >24fps shouldn't be a problem. Incidentally, at what point is there no perceptual difference between one frame rate and another? When I was younger I remember people saying that point was 60fps, but I don't know if that was just a number they threw around or if it was actually tested.

What excites me most about the Scarlet is the ability it will give me to document things more realistically . . . but honestly, I think once someone demonstrates what an action movie with lots of special effects going on looks like at higher frame rates, it will catch on even for 2D theatrical presentations. A gruesome war sequence would probably have a lot more emotional impact if it looked like a recording of real people dying and being blow apart rather than just a Hollywood movie of people dying and being blown apart.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

It was tested by Douglas Trumbull for the 70mm Showscan process. I think his results showed that optimal rate was more like 100 fps or a bit over, maybe 125... but that 60 fps was the lowest he could go and still get that effect of a totally fluid image -- above 60 fps and the improvements were harder and harder to see, making it not worth the extra effort and expense (in terms of film).

 

[Deanan]

It was tested by Douglas Trumbull for the 70mm Showscan process. I think his results showed that optimal rate was more like 100 fps or a bit over, maybe 125... but that 60 fps was the lowest he could go and still get that effect of a totally fluid image -- above 60 fps and the improvements were harder and harder to see, making it not worth the extra effort and expense (in terms of film).

At some point we'll be able to use frame rate as a creative tool by varying it between scenes much like one would with shutter angle. Ie. jump up to 72fps for fast action or high realism and back down to 24 for everything else.

 

[M Most]

At some point we'll be able to use frame rate as a creative tool by varying it between scenes much like one would with shutter angle. Ie. jump up to 72fps for fast action or high realism and back down to 24 for everything else.

I suggested that new filmmakers would want to do that at the Digital Cinema Summit two NAB's ago, and suggested that the capability be added to the revised DCP specifications. Some people listened and thought it was an interesting notion. Others laughed. The new SMPTE version of the spec does include some new frame rates (up to 60 frames), but to my recollection does not allow changing the frame rate on a per scene basis.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

At some point we'll be able to use frame rate as a creative tool by varying it between scenes much like one would with shutter angle. Ie. jump up to 72fps for fast action or high realism and back down to 24 for everything else.

:drool5:

ETA?