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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Panavision

Like always in business when one vendor is slowly falling down then its competitor jumping, buying it and taking over.

That means it's just a matter of time.
 
"This will ultimately benefit Panavision by reducing its debt load and providing fresh capital for growth," said a person close to the situation who requested anonymity.

Also the article hardly states Red as being a factor in Panavision being in this spot it simply says that "Although Panavision remains the market leader, it faces mounting competition from upstart rivals such as Red Digital Cinema, a company that makes low-cost digital cameras."

Like Steve Jobs said back in 1997 "We have to let go of the idea that for us to win they have to lose"
Cool your jets people Panavision is just fine.
 
Panavision is a great company with a great history... they will be just fine.

Jim
 
Phil Jordan said:
It looks like Ron Perelman has given back Panavision to the banks...Perelman
best known for his controlling stake in cosmetics giant Revlon Inc.,
took control of the company in 1998 in a complex deal that saddled Panavision with nearly $500 million in debt.
Click to expand...

Sounds alot easier to make money selling lipstick than renting film cameras though.

Movie Industry certainly hasn't been very fun for Ron Perelman..he
gets control of Panavision in 1998 just when the industry starts to enter the digital age.
Not since sound in the 1920's was there such change. So right at the time
when Panavision needed to put $$$ into research they were stuck w/ $500 million debt.

Then his divorce from actress Ellen Barkin cost him a
$60 million dollar settlement..not to mention jewelry that Barkin
auctioned off for $20 million...plus court ordered $4.4 million payment
to Barkin and her brother's production company Applehead.
On top of which Barkin has now produced HBO pilot which will make
light of her divorce experience and marriage to the Revlon investor.

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/barkin-to-seek-revenge-with-tv-series_1093364

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.ns...ins-favour-in-breach-of-contract-case_1128001
 
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If Panavision needs to reinvent itself, or to adjust, it will.
I believe in them, and so does "Hollywood" etc. etc.

However, I will buy Red Gear..............soon.

I wonder if Panavision will ever SELL cameras?
Probably not.
 
Hmmm, I for one don't think Panavision will be fine. Red's Shock & Awe campaign in placing so many MX cameras in the wild will simply overwhelm the volume of Genesis productions down the line. The knowledge capital will eventually be RED centric. Producers will logically put their trust with the market leader which will certainly be RED.
 
Sort of mixing apples and oranges -- Panavision is the biggest rental house in the industry, and they rent all sorts of cameras, some of their own design, some made by others. Red is not a rental house, they are more of a manufacturer like ARRI (and as ARRI has pointed out, Panavision is their biggest customer.)

So the only question for me is whether Panavision can continue to develop their own cameras in-house like the Genesis (in collaboration with Sony), or whether as a rental house, they will just give up on all that expensive R&D and end up buying and renting ARRI Alexas and Red cameras.

It's a little like when Technicolor ended its dye transfer printing technology and became just another ECN / FCP lab, just one of the biggest in the world, but not distinctive in terms of their technology. But Technicolor is still around.

So the question is whether Panavision will be able to continue its uniqueness or become just another big rental house renting the same cameras & lenses as Clairmont, Ottos, CSC, etc.

But to say that this is a case of Panavision versus Red is to not understand the production market that Panavision caters to, i.e. renting to studio television shows and features. There is no evidence that the whole studio production market is going served by individual Red owner/operators.

As for Red M-X cameras coming to dominate over Genesis productions (and I'll point out that there have been a lot more major productions shot on the Genesis to date), it's sort of inevitable, isn't it? Panavision only made about 120 or so Genesis cameras and they are almost all being rented constantly, now mainly for television work. As they age over time, they will be cheaper to rent and will remain a mainstay for TV production for some time, but it's inevitable that there will be more Red production over time. Once the F35 came out, there was little reason to build more Genesis cameras, not when Panavision could just buy more F35's. So it's sort of a no-brainer that the Genesis will be phased out over time, I don't think Panavision thinks it will be the Number One camera forever either.

Again, the question is what will come out in the future? Will they keep collaborating with Sony on new products? With ARRI? With Red?

When it was a film-based technology, it was a lot easier to develop everything in-house, but now that it's all about sensors and electronics, Panavision has to collaborate with outside companies.
 
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To people like Sanjin who have some sort of silly dream that Red will become the only digital cine camera in the world, I'd say that history shows no evidence of supporting that -- there is always competition out there. Mac hasn't killed Microsoft, Leitz hasn't killed Zeiss, Canon hasn't killed Nikon, etc.

No one can predict who the major players will be in ten years. Sure, Red will be one of them, but not the only one.

Brand-name loyalty only goes so far -- as soon as a competitor makes a better tool, many people jump ship. As they should, it's what forces everyone to make better products.
 
Panavision in Toronto still has an "anti RED" policy. If you are using RED you can't get anything from them. When I first got my camera I had considered asking Panavision about housing my camera with them and then renting all the accessories and lenses from them.

Because of their "anti RED" stance, I ended up buying accessories (follow focus-mattebox-filters, etc). Other rental houses in Toronto open their doors to private owners and happily rent lenses to them. They are prospering.

I shake my head when I read news like this. Not that what I am describing is the cause, but it is a contributing factor.

I like Panavision. But now that I have had really good experiences elsewhere - why would I go back if they do change their policy?
 
Dylan Macleod said:
I like Panavision. But now that I have had really good experiences elsewhere - why would I go back if they do change their policy?
Click to expand...

You shouldn't. But conversely, you have to appreciate why people who get great service from Panavision want them to succeed and keep giving them that great service.

Remember that Panavision served "Book of Eli" not to mention Soderberg's Red movies. But like many rental houses, they'd rather rent their lenses and accessories to people also renting their cameras, so it's partly a matter of prioritization. I've talked to many people at Panavision in Los Angeles and Vancouver and there is no official "anti-Red" policy, there is only a policy of giving priority to people who are renting their entire packages from Panavision over people renting pieces of their packages. But as for what's going on in Toronto, I can't comment.

I think the question in your case is whether if you had bought a personal ARRICAM ST and asked Panavision to convert the mount, etc. and house the camera there, rent their accessories only, would their response be different compared to bringing a Red One in. I suppose in their minds, perhaps if they actually did serve the private ARRICAM owner but not the private Red One owner, they may be thinking that the bar to ownership being so much lower with the Red One, it's a bigger commitment to start serving all private Red One owners, who would number a lot higher than ARRICAM owners.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
You shouldn't. But conversely, you have to appreciate why people who get great service from Panavision want them to succeed and keep giving them that great service.

Remember that Panavision served "Book of Eli" not to mention Soderberg's Red movies. But like many rental houses, they'd rather rent their lenses and accessories to people also renting their cameras, so it's partly a matter of prioritization. I've talked to many people at Panavision in Los Angeles and Vancouver and there is no official "anti-Red" policy, there is only a policy of giving priority to people who are renting their entire packages from Panavision over people renting pieces of their packages. But as for what's going on in Toronto, I can't comment.
Click to expand...

It is very different in Toronto David. I have had conversations with them. RED makes them see Red. :sad:
 
David Mullen ASC said:
To people like Sanjin who have some sort of silly dream that Red will become the only digital cine camera in the world, I'd say that history shows no evidence of supporting that -- there is always competition out there. Mac hasn't killed Microsoft, Leitz hasn't killed Zeiss, Canon hasn't killed Nikon, etc.

No one can predict who the major players will be in ten years. Sure, Red will be one of them, but not the only one.

Brand-name loyalty only goes so far -- as soon as a competitor makes a better tool, many people jump ship. As they should, it's what forces everyone to make better products.
Click to expand...

A "silly dream" or living in a dynamic reality

but there are the facts:

"the most advanced digital camera system with

the highest dynamic range and sensitivity on the market,

it's a RED."

Panavision had always the best cine lenses.

Getting together, everything is possible,...

And of course there are and there will be so many cine digital cameras around, no doubts.

But also there is only ONE (RED) that can shoot in 4K, has a gorgeous images, can mount the best still glass and even you can easy afford it.

BTW, Soderbergh "a former Panavision guy" as he mentioned in one of his recent interviews published at CHE BD/DVD Criterion Edition

now rents Vantage Anamorphic that are pretty OK but never good as a Panavision Anamorphic.

Still remains unclear why he couldn't afford the best anamorphic glass in the industry for his recent project that shooting with newest RED1-M-X.
 
This proves that the guy at the top at Panavision lo, these many years, wasn't the least bit interested in cameras. People that drive technology or compete in a technology sector must be passionate about their core product. All Panavision was to its owners was a debt mule for Perelman's group. Now that that's all squared away, I suspect they will be free to make a move in digital.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
A "silly dream" or living in a dynamic reality

...
Click to expand...

I think you completely missed David's point Sanjin.

Let's pretend that RED gains everything you think will happen in your "dynamic reality"- RED is THE cinema camera. Sony, Panasonic, Arri, Panavision, Aaton- all out of the cinema camera business

Someone, somewhere, will decide RED is too big, too slow, too hard to use and/or too expensive. They'll start up a new company- and try to become the new underdogs to take over the world. They'll even have their own Sanjin.

That's the way it is and its a good thing too. Innovation depends on competition.

I'm excited to see what Panavision does now. I do think this is a positive move for them, and I think they'll be freer to innovate now.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Well, then the Los Angeles home office should give them a talkin' to.
Click to expand...

Soderbergh was told this time for Knowckout that PV would not support his movie and so he rented Hawk lenses instead. It seems the new ploicy is no support for any Red project unless PV supplies the cameras. Maybe that will change with the management change.
 
The fact of the matter is, this industry is all about adaptation. Panavision understands that. Film is not dead but it is declining. I read an article in a photography magazine that stated that Kodak has significantly decreased funding on new film stock r&d while boosting funding for image sensor development. The industry is going digital and Panavision understands that. As a rental only company, they are not competing with Red specifically, rather they are trying to get the most out of their current gear before they go with other cameras. They are an all in one house so I m sure that RED is in their future as well. As far as Red being the only camera company or the major company, I cannot see that happening. Frankly, I predict that the other company's will try to develop cheaper Red competitors. Hell, we may even see another start up that gives Red a run for its money. Granted, the will need a madman like Jim to pull it off but anything is possible. Aaton is developing a 6K digital back for their Penelope cam. Abel cine tech is the major distributor of aaton so that may be a popular choice for those looking to have all all in one film and digital solution. Arri has the new Alexa line which will be popular with rental houses for sure and I imagine Panavision will develop a Red esque cam as well. Don't forget that Sony is entering the 4K+ race as well. 3D is going to be a factor and currently, Sony is the leader. There are just too many factors to consider to predict the future. Red was in the right place at the right time with the right people involved to shake things up but others have noticed and will not go down without a fight. There are rumors of a Silicon Imaging 5K camera as well sub $15,000 so Red certainly does not have the industry in its clutches it is just going to be one of its bigger players.
 
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