Last chance for Arri?

[Phil Jordan]

The Alexa line of new cameras is being tested right now and I think it is a critical time for Arri because if the new cameras only match the RED MX sensors Arri is in big trouble. My friends in Germany tell me that Arri is very worried because they had not counted on the MX sensor being so good and noise-free. Epic is 1/3 the price of the cheapest new Arri camera and the Arri is less resolution and less frme rates. Because Arri has lost a lot of accessory business to smaller companies they needed a win with the new cameras and it doesn't look like they will get it which spells trouble for them. I think Jim likes Arri so maybe it is time that Red buys them out?

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

To me Arri looks like they have a pretty solid footing in the 35mm market so I can't imagine that they will die if these aren't the best cameras ever.

And why would Red buy out Arri they don't seem to need to and I remember I think Jim saying that he likes having them around doing they're thing or something.
Obviously that wasn't an exact quote.

 

[Fu Kiu]

Well.....Arri is well established in the film-making bussiness, while RED is virtually unknown.... This cameras will sell like hotcakes!

 

[Phil Jordan]

Well.....Arri is well established in the film-making bussiness, while RED is virtually unknown.... This cameras will sell like hotcakes!

It doesn't seem to me that Arri is selling many film cameras these days and I hardly think that Red is a virtual unknown. Red has sold more cameras in 3 years than Arri has in their 60 year history. Like 7,000.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Currently there are many DPs, producers and directors around who prefer to shoot on an Arri D21, Panavision Genesis, F35, you name it, and not on a Red.

There are many reasons to do so, be it the post workflow, personal preferences, deals with the rental houses, etc...

Same will apply to Epic and Alexa.

Red's revolution is now 2 1/2 years old an had a visible impact on the industry, no doubt about. Arri 435, LTs etc.. sit on the shelfs and F900Rs are degraded to ENG work. Episodic TV is currently turning from film to digital acquisition, same with commercials and some feature films as well. In 5 years or so film will be marginalised. But Arri's business is/was not cameras only. They are working hard, have the highest quality standard one can imagine and have always been innovative - on many fields.

It may look that they are a bit late (or Red early) but they are not sleeping. In this context it is important to understand that Red and Arri are not serving the same markets. While there is a big private owner base of Red cameras, most Arris are in the possession of rental houses. Rental houses think different when is comes to purchasing new products: the latest, the best, choices, choices, etc...

Regarding accessories Arri is still the benchmark. There are more alternatives on the market than 2 years ago. Mostly in the cheaper indie realm, a market Arri never intended to serve. The good thing is that Arri became more affordable as well. Arri's new remote focus system for instance is great value for the money.

One has to see the industry in a whole. On these forums the view is very often very Red-centric. No wonder, really. That also applies to the size/power of Red. While Red realised new, innovative achievements and technologies and brought fresh wind into the industry it is not the big, international player that can eat all the competitors for breakfast.

Hans

 

[Mike Gross]

It doesn't seem to me that Arri is selling many film cameras these days and I hardly think that Red is a virtual unknown. Red has sold more cameras in 3 years than Arri has in their 60 year history. Like 7,000.

Yes, film camera sales are at an all time rock bottom.

I shot some MX footage this week at 2000 that looked brilliant.
Side by side with the D21 and F35, the MX blew the D21 away
by a long margin and the F35 looked noisy in comparison.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

It doesn't seem to me that Arri is selling many film cameras these days and I hardly think that Red is a virtual unknown. Red has sold more cameras in 3 years than Arri has in their 60 year history. Like 7,000.

Interesting statistic. Show me the source please.

Arri is 93 years old. Please do your homework before you post.

Hans

 

[Phil Jordan]

Currently there are many DPs, producers and directors around who prefer to shoot on an Arri D21, Panavision Genesis, F35, you name it, and not on a Red.

There are many reasons to do so, be it the post workflow, personal preferences, deals with the rental houses, etc...

Same will apply to Epic and Alexa.

Red's revolution is now 2 1/2 years old an had a visible impact on the industry, no doubt about. Arri 435, LTs etc.. sit on the shelfs and F900Rs are degraded to ENG work. Episodic TV is currently turning from film to digital acquisition, same with commercials and some feature films as well. In 5 years or so film will be marginalised. But Arri's business is/was not cameras only. They are working hard, have the highest quality standard one can imagine and have always been innovative - on many fields.

It may look that they are a bit late (or Red early) but they are not sleeping. In this context it is important to understand that Red and Arri are not serving the same markets. While there is a big private owner base of Red cameras, most Arris are in the possession of rental houses. Rental houses think different when is comes to purchasing new products: the latest, the best, choices, choices, etc...

Regarding accessories Arri is still the benchmark. There are more alternatives on the market than 2 years ago. Mostly in the cheaper indie realm, a market Arri never intended to serve. The good thing is that Arri became more affordable as well. Arri's new remote focus system for instance is great value for the money.

One has to see the industry in a whole. On these forums the view is very often very Red-centric. No wonder, really. That also applies to the size/power of Red. While Red realised new, innovative achievements and technologies and brought fresh wind into the industry it is not the big, international player that can eat all the competitors for breakfast.

Hans

I don't think it is a matter of Red eating Arri for breakfast but it is a matter of Arri taking a 2nd position instead of being the industry leader. They lost Jim Elias and many other key employees recently which says a lot. Arri has bet a lot on the Alexa cameras and it turns out they don't match up with the MX program. Don't get me wrong, I like Arri too but they are losing it in the big picture. I just wonder if they wouldn't be better off with new ownership. It is common knowledge that the owners of Arri haven't spoken to each other in years. Maybe it is time for a change?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Well.....Arri is well established in the film-making bussiness, while RED is virtually unknown....

I'd say that was a slight exaggeration....

But D-21 is apparently doing good business vs the Red One.

If I have to bet my 2c on a scenario, then it would be that RED is buying time with he MX upgrade of R1, so that they can release Epic after Alexa and pit Epic very aggressively against it.

Would make sense.

From the numbers, Epic is a winner, but it's no denying that Arri has the upper hand in the "trust" department still, so Epic will have to be a lot better than the Alexa in a number of ways - image quality being one of them - to really gain the overall traction, I think Epic might well do...

And Sony?
What Sony?

 

[Phil Jordan]

Interesting statistic. Show me the source please.

Arri is 93 years old. Please do your homework before you post.

Hans

Why don't you show me that Arri has sold 7000 cameras? The number I have heard is that Arri has sold just over 4,000 cameras in their history and less than 200 digital cameras. Sorry that is 35mm cameras and not including 16mm cameras which is over 15,000. But that is over the entire history.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Why don't you show me that Arri has sold 7000 cameras? The number I have heard is that Arri has sold just over 4,000 cameras in their history.

The problem about such a discussion is that all "facts" come from the hear-say. Which is fine for a conversation while having some beers. But writing statements of this kind is a different thing.

The reason why I highly doubt that Arri build only 4000 cameras is the fact that between the the 50ies and the early 80ies most TV work, including news gathering were done on film. Arri sold their BL16, SR16 to networks literally all over the world, including the Soviets, China who ever.

If you would say something like: I think that Red sold more cameras in the last 3 years than Arri 35mm sound cameras in their entire, almost a century lasting history I would not disagree.

Hans

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Corrections

Corrections

Corrections:

This cameras will sell like hotcakes!

This sound as a joke and even Arri could confirm this.

They are working hard, have the highest quality standard one can imagine
Hans

All companies in this field are working hard.

The highest quality standard definitely has Panavision with cameras (film), lenses and accessories.

Arri was always the second (film cameras and equipment) and it will remain there.

But D-21 is apparently doing good business vs the Red One.

RED ONE-M is an obsolete camera because the newest RED ONE-M-X upgraded camera can easy beat any new competitor camera F35, Genesis and Arri Alexa.

Red competition still has to beat R1-M-X and Epic is technologically too advanced camera that actually doesn't have any competitor.

Sorry Arri D-21 is outdated...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I don't think the biggest risk to ARRI comes from R1 or Epic. Alexa will sell. I think the biggest problem is from accessories and lighting products which are easier to "copy". Apparently there is heaps of ARRI branded equipment available at fraction of the price coming from ...China. Lokks identical too...from the outside. :incazzato:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Corrections:

RED ONE-M is an obsolete camera because upgraded RED ONE-M-X can easy beat any new competitor camera F35, Genesis and Arri Alexa.

Red competition still has to beat R1-M-X and Epic is technologically too advanced camera that actually doesn't have any competitor.

Sorry Arri D-21 is outdated...

I wouldn't say either...

D-21 does well because it's Arri. And it's solid. And it works...
MX will def best R1, but we all have to get the upgrade first.
And people starting lareger projects NOW have to use technology that is available NOW. Right now, that's more like R1 vs D-21.

In a coulpe of months, you may well be right.

Or do you have an MX'ed R1 yet?



Update:
And I agree with Pawel...

 

[Phil Jordan]

I like Arri as a company and their history but I think that they are in trouble. It would be great to see someone help them back to the top but I don't see them doing it by themselves.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The highest quality standard definitely has Panavision with cameras (film), lenses and accessories.

Arri was always the second (film cameras and equipment) and it will remain there.

Sanjin,

Again hear-say. I have reasonable doubts that we have here a discussion group with the expertise to make such bold statements.

If you meat it provocative, fine. If you meant it as a quotation of a common opinion you are on quicksand.

Hans

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I wouldn't say either...

D-21 does well because it's Arri. And it's solid. And it works...
MX will def best R1, but we all have to get the upgrade first.
And people starting lareger projects NOW have to use technology that is available NOW. Right now, that's more like R1 vs D-21.

In a coulpe of months, you may well be right.

Or do you have an MX'ed R1 yet?



Update:
And I agree with Pawel...

Gunleik,

you forgot to use some numbers in your analysis.

Here the numbers mean the money-figures (box office) and the award nominations.

Just count how much money earned movies shot on R1 vs Arri D-21 at the box office in 2009.

Also you can add to this analysis one more category that is

the movies shot on R1 award nominations 2010 vs. movies shot on Arri D-21 award nominations 2010.

Also I already forgot the winners...

Arri still relays on a certain Arri brand "religion" or "hype".

How long it will take we still have to see.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin,

Again hear-say. I have reasonable doubts that we have here a discussion group with the expertise to make such bold statements.

If you meat it provocative, fine. If you meant it as a quotation of a common opinion you are on quicksand.

Hans

Hans,

Panavision equipment is almost all custom and handmade even the lenses...all means with the highest standard...

Of course that Arri accessories are the highest standard that you can buy...

About the lenses I will not discuss at all...with Arri anyway Carl Zeiss is standing behind all designs...

Definitely the best cine lenses has Panavision, spherical or anamorphic, primes either zooms.

Watch the movies and make your own comparisons and analysis.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Hans,

Panavision equipment is almost all custom and handmade even the lenses...all means with the highest standard...

Of course that Arri accessories are the highest standard that you can buy...

About the lenses I will not discuss at all...with Arri anyway Carl Zeiss is standing behind all designs...

Definitely the best cine lenses has Panavision, spherical or anamorphic, primes either zooms.

personal opinion = hearsay :auto:

 

[Mark Allen]

A general comment about the film industry equipment world.

I believe that any company hoping to survive in the new age of filmmaking will need to adopt a prosumer model. Even if it is one that has various levels.

If you compare the number of filmmakers today to 40 years ago to 20 years ago to 10 years ago to 5 years ago to 3 years ago (notice my numbres are shrinking), you will see an exponential growth in that field. Coupled with that has been a massive median drop in production budgets. Yes there are some of the most expensive movies ever made being made but compared to the overall number of productions (even professional ones) those are a spec on the meter.

This means that demand for equipment has grown actually. Which is good. But that means competition will grow, which means pricing will become more competitive - especially because the new generation is not working with the same budgets as the old generation.

The indie movies of 20 years ago still had 2 million dollar budgets. Those same level of movies are being shot for like 200,000 now.

So in order to lower prices to the right price point, the cameras will have to sell in mass.

the only cameras in the future which will demand huge price tags will be specialized cameras that shoot rarely needed things like super high speed. Everything else will succumb to supply demand.

This will be true of all equipment - support / lighting / grip.

Any company that doesn't acknowledge that they are now facing a much larger and more price demanding market and thinks they can offer just a brand name versus competition will fail.

that's my theory at least.

And I betcha it's Jim's too, but I don't know that to be true.