Filming with an HD DSLR…”The things they don’t tell you”

[D.L Parker]

So is the Canon 5D Mark 2 a great video camera to make shorts with?

 

[Ken Hendricks]

Can someone please explain to me why anyone would seriously try to shoot a feature on a DSLR? Are they shooting for the web only? Is it all about the shallow depth of field? It seems to me that moire and aliasing and a codec that was never meant for acquisition would seriously get in the way. Don't these "HD" cameras have more compression than MiniDV?

I guess I'm pretty biased and I just don't get it. Please educate me.

 

[Liam Hall]

So is the Canon 5D Mark 2 a great video camera to make shorts with?

Whilst "Great" is a relative term, it is true to say that you can make a short that will look very good indeed. But, you'll need a DoP who understands how to make this hybrid technology sing.

Can someone please explain to me why anyone would seriously try to shoot a feature on a DSLR?

Because they can't afford a 35mm film camera or a digital cinema camera, but don't want their work to look like the News at Six.

It's not up to RED standard and it has more foibles either than Howard Hughes or Michael Jackson ever had, but with decent glass and good stabilisaton it can produce some very compelling images.

If last week you were shooting with a lens adapter to get your bokeh fix, this week a 5D or 7D would be the way to go.

In a few months it will be Scarlet or Epic.

I've used a 7D as a 'B' cam on several jobs and even my highly skeptical producer had to concede that the images were exceptional and far superior to those produced by the big old fashioned Sony ENG hunk of... you get the idea

BTW the 7D has a much higher data rate than DV.

 

[JD Holloway]

Used a 5D mounted to a car in New York.
We shot building reflections in the Uridium visor of a Nasa space helmet.

No permits, no problem.
Easy light weight mounting too.
All over new York.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

"What you get in the camera is a micky mouse mic or a 3.5mm jack input allowing you to record with a better quality mic plugged in but no control of the gain and no metering leading to very poor amateur sound..."

Has he never heard of Beachtek?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/531332-REG/Beachtek_DXA_6A_DXA_6A_Audio_Adapter.html

beacutek!? How about an external PCM recorder? Who in their right mind would record sound directly onto a cam liek teh 5D?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Whilst "Great" is a relative term, it is true to say that you can make a short that will look very good indeed. But, you'll need a DoP who understands how to make this hybrid technology sing.



Because they can't afford a 35mm film camera or a digital cinema camera, but don't want their work to look like the News at Six.

It's not up to RED standard and it has more foibles either than Howard Hughes or Michael Jackson ever had, but with decent glass and good stabilisaton it can produce some very compelling images.

If last week you were shooting with a lens adapter to get your bokeh fix, this week a 5D or 7D would be the way to go.

In a few months it will be Scarlet or Epic.

I've used a 7D as a 'B' cam on several jobs and even my highly skeptical producer had to concede that the images were exceptional and far superior to those produced by the big old fashioned Sony ENG hunk of... you get the idea

BTW the 7D has a much higher data rate than DV.

In many ways a good cam (like Ex Xh, etc.) with a good 35mm adapter will be far superior to a 7D or 5D.

 

[Tyler Lambert]

In many ways a good cam (like Ex Xh, etc.) with a good 35mm adapter will be far superior to a 7D or 5D.

Thats funny, I've done over 100 hours of research on 35mm adapters, watching tests from cameras such as the EX1 and Xh-A1(S) and have not seen anything that comes close to what I have seen from the 7D (my 7D) and other footage from the 5D Mk II.

Not to mention that on top of an already large camera, you have to have this adapter and additional lens to go in front of it. Obtrusive not to mention time wasting, in some places. And you can achieve a look much more pleasing to the eye and with a higher bitrate, as someone mentioned than the EX1 and Xh camera at a lower price.

I wonder where you get the reasoning that the footage from such a camera as the EX1 and Canon cameras (XH) series gets better image quality than a 7D with decent glass on it... Though with time comes experience and knowledge they say, which is more than applicable in your case.

 

[Liam Hall]

In many ways a good cam (like Ex Xh, etc.) with a good 35mm adapter will be far superior to a 7D or 5D.

Only if shooting over-cranked as 720p/60 and 720p/50 look terrible on the 7D. Otherwise it's bye-bye adapter, unless of course you really like noisy pictures.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

In many ways a good cam (like Ex Xh, etc.) with a good 35mm adapter will be far superior to a 7D or 5D.

I've shot pictures on a RED, a 7D, an EX1 with Letus, and an HVX200 with Letus.

All with the same lens set, (Zeiss ZF's at 35, 50 and 85, plus a nikon 17-35)

The RED of course stands alone in that group.

Then far down the pike comes the 7D.

Long after that we come to the EX1

then finally the HVX200.

That said, the 7D was the biggest pain to use, and could easily trip up a less skilled DP. The video cams and the RED are far more bullet proof in that regard.

Frankly I think that a lot of people attracted to the 7D because of price will be the ones least able to deal with its idiosyncrasies. A good number of them would be far better served with a Sony XDCAM EX F350, or even an HPX500.

The 7D is not a panacea. I can earnestly say that, while I bought it for video, I wouldn't have bought one in if I couldn't rely on it as a solid still camera after Scarlet shows up. (I hope to gather up 2 2/3" interchangeable Scarlets and a S35.)

That said, until Scarlet shows up the Canon DSLRs own the cinema space under $30,000 or so. (i.e. the cost of a bare bones RED One Kit)

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I'd assume that if you shot some charts with the EX and 7D/5D, you would find that the EX and many other camcorders resolve much more information, and handle aliasing and moire much better. then again I have neither the time spent in the industry or knowledge to say this is the reality of the situation. Though I have seen that my own camcorder is far superior to my VDSLR, in a few ways. Though they are only a few, they are so important that if I were to be working on a production where I was allowed only one I would pick the camcorder for it's reliability.

Not saying don't get a VDSLR, I love mine and I'm learning many things from it that I wouldn't from my camcorder. But When it comes to fast pans and such I can't even think of using it, sure the static pictures look beautiful, but any quick random movement and you risk some jello to come into play ( I have a lower end VDSLR so might not be the same issues....)

I'm just learning but from what I have seen it seems that in certain scenarios and situations the EX or whatever cam, plus an adapter (or without one) would be far superior to the 7D/5D. However I think the best (until scarlet comes out) solution is to have both a VDSLR and a camcorder to cover all bases.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

In many ways a good cam (like Ex Xh, etc.) with a good 35mm adapter will be far superior to a 7D or 5D.

A+

Better be careful, though, the 7D has a cult following something the sort of XBox360 vs PS3 crowds. Saying anything truthful will get you burned at the stake.

Indeed, I've seen HVX200 + SGpro (ORIGINALS) footage in the SAME timeline with 7D footage and the HVX200 + SGPro footage murders the 7D. All day long. To put it pretty simple: these DSLR things are a decent gap-filler between 35mm Adapters and Scarlet. One that I can't wait to pass over.

This from someone who owns four (4) 7Ds and one 5D, has shot several terrabytes of footage on both and steadily teaching and informing on them in the field. Before any of you attempt to rape me on the subject.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Can someone please explain to me why anyone would seriously try to shoot a feature on a DSLR? Are they shooting for the web only? Is it all about the shallow depth of field?

Budget is a factor, as is depth of field.

For me the advantage of the 7D over the midrange video cameras is the way image tones are represented. Especially skin tones. These cameras take great pictures, and that quality transfers to the video- despite all the issues with the video.

So yes, an intelligent DP can in fact choose to shoot with a VDSLR, I have and the results are fantastic.

In fact I genuinely say that lighting, shot planning, and camera technique matter more than the limitations of the camera.

In many ways you ask the exact wrong question. Its easy for me to see these VDSLR's on feature work. Its a no brainer in many instances.

What I question is people buying these cameras for ENG or other work where you don't have a crew on the camera, and where you don't get a second take.

It seems to me that moire and aliasing and a codec that was never meant for acquisition would seriously get in the way. Don't these "HD" cameras have more compression than MiniDV?

Moire and aliasing are only important in so far as you have no control over the subject matter, lighting and camera motion.

In many cases dropping the ISO and opening the aperture got rid of all the moire and much of the aliasing.

You can also use very light filtration to kind of serve as an OLPF. A lot of these issues arise because the OLPF is for 18Mpixels, not 2Mpixels.

Let me sum that up as, moire and aliasing can cause issues, but in narrative film style work you can use craftsmanship to deal with it very effectively.

There is a HUGE factual gap in your argument though.

The codecs on these cameras rock.

The codec is full raster 1080p h.264 in 8-bit 4:2:0 at 45Mbps.

By comparison HDV is a bad joke. So are the AVCHD codecs on many low end camcorders, which are essentially the same thing but with half the bandwidth.

This codec also seriously outstrips the codec on the XDCAM EX cameras.

Its hard to compare it to the Panasonic codecs. I think the closest comparison is to DVCPRO HD. The encoding is far more efficient, and it encodes more resolution. DVCPRO HD encodes better chroma information and has more bandwidth- so in practice I find the codecs comparable.

AVC Intra at 50Mbps is a much much better codec, and AVC Intra at 100Mbps is another ballgame.

If you can't tell I'm a fan of Panasonic's codecs- if only their cameras lived up to them.

The main point though is if you are happy with the codec on a Sony EX3, EX1 or the EX F350 then you have no reason to complain about the codec on these VDSLR's from Canon.

I guess I'm pretty biased and I just don't get it. Please educate me.

Yes you are biased.

As a DP you are responsible for being well informed, not highly opinionated.

Being well informed starts with accurate information, obtained through research and testing.

So, as I'm known to say to my crew, "Stop "thinking" and investigate instead."

Now, I want to be clear, these cameras are not a panacea. They are pretty awesome though, when used intelligently.

I've certainly already paid for my Canon 7D, and it will more than tide me over until I get my hands on some Scarlets.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'd assume that if you shot some charts with the EX and 7D/5D, you would find that the EX and many other camcorders resolve much more information, and handle aliasing and moire much better.

I can confirm this, with caveats.

The EX1 with its built in lens is much sharper than the 7D, it actually resolves over 1000 lines in every test I've seen or done.

Now, the EX1 with a Letus or comparable adapter is another ball of wax. The image is much softer.

In fact the 7D is sharper than an EX1 with an adapter.

Of course it is precisely this sharpness that leads to the worst of the aliasing and moire problems on the 7D and its ilk.

The 7D can be its own worst enemy.

 

[Peter Lundström]

Just one thing to consider... the DSLRs are not made for shooting video, thats an afterthought. Ergonomically it doesnt fit at all and for anything other than controlled circumstances you can pretty much forget about it. Imagine ENG work on a 7D... yikes...

 

[Jon Chema]

I was amazed at the arrogant statements that this blogger made. Like most people out there, I cannot afford to buy a new RED camera yet as much as I would love to. I know that what RED is doing is truly remarkable but unfortunately I don't have the budget...YET. Enter the DSLR. I was able to purchase my Canon 7D DSLR rig for under 3 grand and the results as far as image quality blow everything else out of the water! Yes, you've gotta deal with focus more...so what? BUY A FF unit....yes the LCD sucks...but I've got a solution to that as well....an EXTERNAL LCD....Ergonomics....RedRock Rail System and Shoulder mount and finally audio...I use a Zoom recorder and the results are crisp stunning sound that surpasses anything an EX3 can offer.

To summarize, not everything can afford pricey cameras and you've simply got to do the best with what you can afford. The DSLR's out today are an amazingly inexpensive yet brilliant tool that is allowing indie filmmakers to somewhat compete with rigs 5-10x as expensive....and after all...isn't the primary purpose of filmmaking to tell a story?

Just some thoughts...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Everyone knows that I love Canon and was one of the first people out there trying to shoot cinema stuff on the 5D2, but when I *dared* to mention aliasing or test chart performance of the video mode, I had a bunch of hot-and-bothered kids jumping down my throat on Twitter calling me an "elitist." Totally absurd. A lot of DSLR shooters like to make claims of Red "elitism" even if those claims are totally bogus. A small but vocal minority seem to have a martyr complex, IMO.

 

[Vince Doran]

Is this argument ever going to end? If i was Jim I'd stop making all the fancy accessories and have all hands on deck finishing Scarlet and Epic, until that happens 10's of 1000's will be out buying DSLR cams and using them. My future will involve the smallest cams available with an "acceptable" image and they are highly likely to get trashed gathering images. I also like taking stills so I'll buy what is best for my needs/budget and consider any camera that is on or about to be on the market.
I would guess that the Canon engineers/designers are very proud of the fact that a LOT of people are comparing their cheap stills camera's video mode to a Red one?

 

[Tyler Lambert]

Is this argument ever going to end?

Lol, no, at least not at the moment. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I think that when someone comes along and try's to downplay the stuff that Canon is putting out, it bothers them a bit, especially if they happen to own one such product (I know I am).

Especially considering how quickly this new technology was adopted and used for so many professional applications. Just look at Saturday Night Live, George Lucas being just stunned with the image quality on a (60' screen?), and not to mention what Shane Hurlbut (DP for Terminator Salvation) is doing. I don't know if anyone has posted it, but he is shooting a full length feature film with something like 15 5d's, a couple 7d's, and I think he mentioned a 1d as well.

While he is shooting with Panavision lens, its just amazing to me that he would have access to RED, the Genesis, and a whole slew of other cameras, and choose the brand new Canon HD DSLR's over all that.

I think that guys like me who don't have a huge budget for video (just starting out) see the huge opportunity to be had with these cams, and are just downright irritated when some guy with a "Better Camera", doesn't just have to be a RED user (Though that seems to be the group that is picking on us the most) comes along and trys to say "Yeah, its great and all, but..(Then comes a lecture about whats bad about this, and whats bad about that, without even stopping to admire the amazing footage that this person has created and is excited about)".
So yeah, thats about all I wanted to say. The other thing that I will mention, that has been mentioned before, is the fact that its totally obvious that there's a lot of RED users who are jealous (dare I say the word). I won't elaborate, I could write another whole section on this, but I think you all know what I mean.

Go and shoot with what you've got, make the best of it, and just ignore the rest

(Ignore spelling and grammar errors for now, I didn't have enough time to read back through it).

PS

Thanks for that great summary jchema, thats really the pith of what I am trying to say here (not that anyone will listen, but the more they get exposed to this kind of stuff, the more they will realize its truth).

Post-post scriptum

I see that someone here is trying to push that a DOF adapter on an ex3, or a canon hx camera will yield the same results as a 7D. While this might seem obvious to a beginner, I did over 35 hours of research when looking for a new camera, and once considered the HX-a1s camera at one point, but the dof adapter stuff didn't look quite right. Besides that, can you imaging doing run-and-gun stuff with an xh-a1s with a dof adapter and a lens on the front? I can't even imagine...so big and bulky for less quality.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

I see that someone here is trying to push that a DOF adapter on an ex3, or a canon hx camera will yield the same results as a 7D. While this might seem obvious to a beginner, I did over 35 hours of research when looking for a new camera, and once considered the HX-a1s camera at one point, but the dof adapter stuff didn't look quite right. Besides that, can you imaging doing run-and-gun stuff with an xh-a1s with a dof adapter and a lens on the front? I can't even imagine...so big and bulky for less quality.

This may sound offensive... you should research for a few more hours. There's no question about it: the 7D video is beneath a 35mm Adapter combo. I've seen HVX200 + SGPro footage on the SAME timeline as 7D footage and the SGpro + HVX200 footage murders it.

You're right, people don't like to be told their camera is sub-par, but the truth is the truth and it will only empower you and set you free.

I OWN more 7Ds than most rental houses, I've paid all of my garbage off, a few things twice over, it's a fun tool but it is what it is: gap-filler until the real-deal lightweight rolls into town.

Whether it's named SCARLET or CanonRAW, well, that remains to be seen.

 

[Tyler Lambert]

While I really don't want to argue this whole thing, I will make a few points.

This may sound offensive... you should research for a few more hours. There's no question about it: the 7D video is beneath a 35mm Adapter combo.

What makes you think that I should do more research? I've already purchased my 7D, and am more than happy with it. I've shot with a variety of different cameras, and have never gotten the results that I have with this camera.

but the truth is the truth and it will only empower you and set you free.

What is the basis of your truth? I've already said it, and I will say it again; Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just happen to be on the side that a lot of big name guys are on (Lucas, Bloom, Hurlbut) I've never heard of anybody on this forum (with the exception of a few), including you, and therefore the opinions you throw out are quite useless to me...

...and the SGpro + HVX200 footage murders it.

Now that will sound offensive, I was considering the HVX with an SGpro, but the footage just didn't cut it, for a lot of different reasons. Just look at the bitrate difference for one major point. Not to mention sensor size and picture control.

Might want to be care what you go out there saying next time. Like I've said, this is a topic open for debate, but when I must refute fallacies all day, I'd rather not.

PS, sorry, I meant XH-a1s