Optimo vs Optimo Rogue

[Dustin Cross]

I have a feature coming up and we have the option of using Angenieux zoom lenses. Some are the S35 Optimo lenses and others are the 4K Optimo Rogue lenses. Is there a big difference in the looks of these? Will we notice a difference in the look of the footage if we try to intercut Optimo and Optimo Rogue footage. I was told they are completely difference optics and looks and I want to know how different?

Thanks for your feedback.


Mahalo,
Dusty

 

[David Collard]

I heard they are optically almost identical. Haven't heard any complaints about quality.
The rouge was made for digital cinematography specifically, so it might be a better choice. You just can't put a rouge lens on regular film camera.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Rouge for RED

Rouge for RED

Evin Grant or Matt Duclos might be able to provide a more complete technical explanation but from what I understand the Optimo Rouge lenses are a better match to single plane sensors like the Bayer CFA in the RedOne than the traditional Optimos. The issue is that film has layers, each of which records particular wavelengths of light and the thickness of those layers needs to compensated for in the optics. CMOS bayer arrays have adjacent color filtered photosites that all sit on the same plane.

Beyond that, and from what I understand of the physics even more of an issue, the photoreceptors on a CMOS chip are actually slightly recessed in a physical grid. This means that the angle of incidence, particularly on a wider angle lens, is more oblique toward the edges than in the middle. Traditional lens design for film cameras did not address this as film has no such polarization on its surface. Modern digital lenses like the RPPs and the Optimo Rouge zooms are designed to mitigate this issue.

Bottom line - if I am shooting on a CMOS digital sensor like Mysterium or Arri D-20/21 I would choose the Rouge and for 35mm negative I would choose the regular Optimos.

If I have mis-interpreted this issue I would look forward to being educated by some of the serious lens geeks on this forum, well except for Sanjin ;-) :emote_hippie:.

Cheers - #19

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

and the Rouge are MUCH more affordable... Tasty glass indeed. Hope to score a pair of Rouge Zooms for Stereo3D in the near future.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

On the Arris you cannot use the Rouge series. It will fit only cameras without a spinning mirror because it protrudes too much into the mount.

I've used the Optimo 15-40 quite often with the Red and found no disadvantage to the Rouge series other than its higher price.

All this buzz about sensors need a different lens design as film is physically probably right but in production reality I never notice any difference. Perhaps you will see that on a projector but I never chose a lens because of its performance on a lens projector.

The good 18-100 would fail in this regard badly but what a beautiful lens in the real world. BTW, I find the Optimos, either Rouge or not, optically great but lacking personality.

Hans

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

On the Arris you cannot use the Rouge series. It will fit only cameras without a spinning mirror because it protrudes too much into the mount.

I've used the Optimo 15-40 quite often with the Red and found no disadvantage to the Rouge series other than its higher price.

All this buzz about sensors need a different lens design as film is physically probably right but in production reality I never notice any difference. Perhaps you will see that on a projector but I never chose a lens because of its performance on a lens projector.

The good 18-100 would fail in this regard badly but what a beautiful lens in the real world. BTW, I find the Optimos, either Rouge or not, optically great but lacking personality.

Hans

I stand corrected. The spinning mirror makes the Rouge impossible to use on the current Arri digital rigs, my error. I wonder if the two Alexa series Arri digital cams due out this year with Electronic VFs will be able to use the Angie Rouge zooms? I would assume so, but perhaps Michael Bravin could confirm...

I share a personal affection for a number of less than optically ideal lenses (loves me some SuperSpeeds) and will use them when appropriate/available but they do lock you into a particular "feel". The advantage I see for something like the Rouge with its neutral character, is as a starting point for building a much wider variety of looks. Moreover, seeing the footage at Red Day on the big badass 21,000 lumen 4K T-series Sony bazooka sure makes me wonder how far "pretty" will go if too much genuine resolving power is missing.

Cheers - #19

 

[Dustin Cross]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I miss worded my real question though.

We will need to use both Optimos and Optimos Rogues on the same show. Will they cut together or will we notice a difference in the look of the two.

If I shoot the wide on an Optimo and the close on a Optimo Rogue, will the footage cut together without a lot of tweeking?


Thanks,
Dusty

 

[Matthew Duclos]

You'll never notice a difference in image quality between the Optimo and Rogue lenses.
Enjoy either or.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I share a personal affection for a number of less than optically ideal lenses (loves me some SuperSpeeds) and will use them when appropriate/available but they do lock you into a particular "feel".

Cheers - #19

Blair, I see we like the same lenses. The lens flare of SuperSpeeds is second to none. I find resolution not really important. Don't we live much more in a 1080p world than anything else? Aren't quite often parts of the picture out of focus anyway? Isn't meant by resolution oftentimes the perceived information a audience sees? And isn't perception determined my many things but hardly resolution?
Personally I find resolution, or better sharpness, much more a look thing than a technical must for high resolving pictures. Sometimes I rent RPPs or UP but mostly I prefer older glass. Same applies to guitars or horns ('64 Selmer Mark6... yummy).

Hans

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi

Shot with both on the same shoot (16-42 dp and 15-40) multiple times and there is no production difference... Apart from the Red colour being ugly!

kind regards

Michael L

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

E
If I have mis-interpreted this issue I would look forward to being educated by some of the serious lens geeks on this forum, well except for Sanjin ;-) :emote_hippie:.

Cheers - #19

Blair,

terribly sorry "to disturb" you again with my "non-educated lens knowledge" but give you below some nice examples shot with two older Angenieux zooms on my RED1. :emote_hippie::emote_hippie::emote_hippie:

You'll never notice a difference in image quality between the Optimo and Rogue lenses.
Enjoy either or.

Matthew,

absolutely right,

even between old FF35mm zooms Angenieux 2x35mm or 3x70mm with Canon FD mount compared to the Optimo and Rogue lenses you can't notice any difference in image quality.

Shot on RED1 with Angenieux 70-210mm FD.

Shot on RED1 with Angenieux 70-210mm FD.

Shot on RED1 with Angenieux 35-70mm FD where you can recognize the famous and characteristic "Angenieux style" flare in the middle of the image.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Optical performance between the Optimos and the Optimo DP Rouge lenses is essentially identical. It is a lot easier and therefore a lot less expensive to design a lens when ou don't have to worry about a spinning reflex mirror which is wh the lenses extend so far behind the mount.

 

[Matthew Duclos]

Also, last time I did a side by side comparo for my own amusement, I found that the Rogue lenses were less flared and retained higher resolution into the corners of the frame. This would be a result of what Blair was saying about the image landing on the sensor on the same plane in the center of the image as well as the edge.