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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Am I missing something?

M

Mike Brent

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Hello,

Until Scarlet is out I'm planning to use a 5DmrkII . I will need to shoot some scenes with 5-6 people walking and talking, improvising etc. My plan is this:

I'm going to buy three (yes, three) Zoom H4n Handy recorders $300 each

http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-Handy-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B001QWBM62

it gives me six channels for $900 (It records 24bit/96kHz)

Next - five Sony UWP-V1 Wireless mics for $409

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist.jsp&sku=553684&A=cart&is=REG&q=1&Q=add

so thats $409 x $2045 . I will also use a boom for the 6th channel for ambiance etc.

So I use a mic on each person and a boom... each has adjustable levels recorded at high quality, matching them up in editing should be a breeze.

Am I missing something?
 
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Make sure you record at 24bit-96K.. it'll be better.
 
I think it's a great idea. Should work. Another variation would be give each actor their own Zoom with a wired lav. Removes any wireless issues.

You may be able to set the two zoom tracks to different levels so you had a strong and soft track of each actor. Set right you could get whispers and screams without live mixing and customize levels for every actor.

(In theory - I haven't done it)
 
Your sound guy is going to love you... : )

You've probably already got this covered, but with so many mic's not going through a single mixing source, you probably want a really loud synchronisation marker to ensure you get a good mark on each channel. A clapperboard will probably not be audible enough. You could probably rig up something simple and effective using a bright LED and a piezzo buzzer (a loud one!) with a push button switch to hold in front of the camera. That way you get a nice marker on camera and on all the audio tracks. Can save a lot of grief later on (I recently had to sync up the audio on a single person, single audio channel interview with no markers and it was a nightmare, especially as the interviewee was a bit of a mumbler and hardly moved their lips!)

How is the monitoring of each channel going to be done, because those wireless mic's can rustle especially if you hide them in clothing and you don't want to discover that after the event...

That said, the Zoom's are fantastic little recorders - my cousin used one recently in Mozambique for ambience on a Matt Hayes fishing shoot for Discovery (his regular HDD recorder was "lost" for about a week in customs).. he did mention watching out for clipping if you are using a pro-mixer as the Zoom has a semi-pro line level, easily corrected for though.

Forgive me if I caught the wrong end of the stick on any of this!

Regards,

Julian
 
In my opinion you would be wasting your money.
Even if scarlet was out how would you be recording your audio then?

Here is an odd idea... Why not let someone with the proper gear and knowledge handle the audio while you handle the video. This is how successful professional sounding productions are done. If you get in the habit of doing this now, it soon becomes second nature, and ups the quality of your finished product.

Just a thought!


All the Best!
 
You are putting all chances to your side to get into big touble!

How are the preamplifier of these devices?
How will you monitor those?
Synch won't be 100% you could get phase problems (change it in a cotly postprod)

Get a sound guy.

Or try it out and send us your feedback ;-)

Pat
 
Hi everybody,

Thanks for your input. I will start with smaller scenes and will make my way up.
 
Hi Patrick,

Not to hijack Mike's post, but we all might find this helpful:

- I read you on the monitoring side - No monitoring= big problems in the making for obvious reasons (rustling etc.).

However, I am very interested in your comment about phasing. I can understand phasing problems between standard stereo left and right tracks (easy enough to fix in FCP or Soundtrack) , but phase problems on audio tracks that are fundamentally different too each other? Now you have got me worried!

Is this because in the final mix down there could be wave cancellations and phasing issues more serious than just a simple flipped phase? Do you mean that the phasing could actually be out to such an extent that one doesn't actually know the position of each individual tracks phase and that there could be partial but substantial cancellation as a result? Thinking about it, that would be a nightmare to correct.

Would you have a chance to elaborate a bit more please, it would be very informative and interesting.

Thanks,

Julian
 
Hi Julian,

I'm not a sound guy... so I couldn't answer technically the potential phasing problem. But the recorders he intend to use are clearly not synched by any Clockit or synch cable. I think when he imports the different soundtracks into an editing station he will have those sound problems (like small echo or subframe artefacts) as those sounds are recording the same ambient but not starting at the same time. I think phasing is not the right word for those subframe artefacts...

Sorry not to be clearer.

Pat
 
Patrick:

No worries, thanks anyway. I am going on a short 1-to-1 sound course soon with a pro sound guy (my aforementioned cousin). I'm not doing it to become a sound guy, but to understand the issues better as a director, so I'll throw some of these questions at him at the same time.

Cheers,
Julian
 
Patrick is on the right track...

If your editing software only allows frame-based editing of audio tracks, you'll never get unlocked audio tracks properly in sync, because you'll only have the ability to adjust them by 1/24th of a second.

However, if your editing software allows sub-frame editing of audio tracks, you'll be able to adjust them by 1/96,000th of a second (assuming 96Khz sample rate) which will allow you to get them in sync, it just might take require a far bit of time fiddling with it.
 
For independent syncing of actors on this system, have each state their name at the head of the shot, while in frame, and they can clap their hands once to sync. Do this in turns, not all at once.
 
I think you should use a clapper slate visible to the camera at the head of each shot to get a single sync reference point for all tracks for that shot. Much easier to align than a hand clap. For best sync, your audio deck recording format should match the camera audio format for sample rate and bit depth.

I have not tried this with digital recorders, but used to use non-synchronous portable audio cassette decks in similar fashion with 16mm film cameras. You do get some drift, but usually not enough to be noticeable over shot lengths of a minute or so. Digital decks should have much less drift than the old analog versions.
 
Julian Gerretsen said:
Hi Patrick,

Not to hijack Mike's post, but we all might find this helpful:

- I read you on the monitoring side - No monitoring= big problems in the making for obvious reasons (rustling etc.).

However, I am very interested in your comment about phasing. I can understand phasing problems between standard stereo left and right tracks (easy enough to fix in FCP or Soundtrack) , but phase problems on audio tracks that are fundamentally different too each other? Now you have got me worried!

Is this because in the final mix down there could be wave cancellations and phasing issues more serious than just a simple flipped phase? Do you mean that the phasing could actually be out to such an extent that one doesn't actually know the position of each individual tracks phase and that there could be partial but substantial cancellation as a result? Thinking about it, that would be a nightmare to correct.

Would you have a chance to elaborate a bit more please, it would be very informative and interesting.

Thanks,

Julian
Click to expand...

You've got it just about right on the phasing problem. In dialog, if two mics are picking up the same dialog (lavs on 2 people who get sort of close together) can phase-cancel each other. I'm not sure, though, that this would be substantially different if you had all the wireless mics going to a single mixing board. The physical phase problem would still exist.

I think the real question here is who is going to monitor this? It's going to take a LOT of attention to ensure clean recording of 5 +1 mics. Troubleshooting both the mic placement issues and the wireless signal issues will take some doing.
 
No offense, but you may want to stop re-inventing the wheel. I have one of those handicorders and they are great, but I always back them up, just in case. You've tripled the hastle of both starting recording and syncing in post and monitoring without any back-up. The standard way is to feed the lavs to a multi track which I'm sure you could buy for the price of three recorders, and then mix the outs and send that to at least one camera, so you can phase sync in post if necessary. Most pros will also feed a backup multi. That way everything can be monitored from one spot. And what about playback? Are you going to watch your playback MOS? Save the money on the recorders (which I gaurantee you will use only once) and rent a sound guy and his kit.
 
multichannel audio interface and laptop-

multichannel audio interface and laptop-

-is an alternative if you can't hire a sound guy. Your setup is difficult to handle in post, but a true guerilla approach. BEst of luck, having tried stuff like you do I must say that it is way better to have a sound guy, second best is to have multitrack sound in sync, with good mics, good pre's and most importantly: placing the mics right!
best of luck
 
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