Mini Primes

[Jonathan Burton]

Hey all! Sorry if this is another dumb question...

I am wondering what the advantages are of getting the 2/3 interchangeable over the 2/3 fixed? As far as I can tell the focal lengths available are equally broad, the sensor size is the same and so is the res, correct? So why spend more on interchangeable primes?

The fixed lens is described as being pretty dam good, is it simply that the interchangeables are better? Or is it just for those who prefer working with primes?

Also, on a similar topic, are we likely to see a bigger range of Mini Primes? Even with the sensor conversion rates from 35mm to 2/3, it would be nice to have some longer focal lengths than 50mm.

Any info would be very helpful!

 

[Martin Weiss]

Jono,

This is a real name forum. Please post your real name to http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32432&highlight=real+name&page=999

 

[Jonathan Burton]

Sorry about that! Have not logged in in a while. All done!

 

[Martin Weiss]

Thx

 

[Jim Retar]

As far as I know.... no detailed info has been released regarding the fixed lens.

I would expect the primes to be alot faster, for starters. Most fixed lenses get slower as you zoom (eg, f4 wide and f5.6 at full zoom) not sure if this will be the case with the fixed scarlet though.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The fixed lens model is about convenience and functionality. All electronic controls and a tightly integrated "fly by wire" package. The interchangeable lens model is about having more options.

The fixed lens model has an 8X zoom that is F2.4 (T2.6 in this case) throughout the zoom range. Actual focal lengths have not been stated yet, but 7.5mm to 60mm range has been said to be close.

The mini-primes are all T1.5.

 

[Nils J. Nesse]

Interchangable is a large advantage in itself, to a lot of users. Not only because you can use Red's mini primes, but you can use 16mm/S16 PL lenses (primes or zooms), and whatever else you find a use for. This makes the interchangable model a competitor to the Sony F23/Thomson Viper/SI-2K/etc cameras. While the fixed model is more of an HVX/EX1 killer. IMHO.

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

Interchangable is a large advantage in itself, to a lot of users. Not only because you can use Red's mini primes, but you can use 16mm/S16 PL lenses (primes or zooms), and whatever else you find a use for.

Can anyone confirm this?
I was under the impression that the Scarlet interchangeable has a mini PL mount.
Also, does anyone knows if Scarlet and Epic are going to share the same batteries? I understand that all the Red One V lock batteries will not fit. (very bad for the environment, disposing tens of thousands Red batteries)

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Can anyone confirm this?
I was under the impression that the Scarlet interchangeable has a mini PL mount.
Also, does anyone knows if Scarlet and Epic are going to share the same batteries? I understand that all the Red One V lock batteries will not fit. (very bad for the environment, disposing tens of thousands Red batteries)

Four screws hold that Mini-PL lens-mount module on. Unscrew those and you'll be able to put any one of the new DSMC mounts on any of the new cameras (except the fixed Scarlet - that lens is permanently attached). So you can get a PL mount ($500 iirc) and use your 16mm optics, or use 35mm glass with that mount or a Nikon or Canon mount (but remember that 2/3" sensors are fairly small compared to 35mm, so you your field of view will be far narrower with 35mm glass. So a 18mm lens on a 2/3" camera looks the same as something like a 50 to 70 mm lens on a 35mm camera).

Same with batteries - the battery module fits on both Scarlet and Epic. There will also definitely be a way of connecting the current RED batteries and other V-Lock batteries. You may need to buy a different plate, but probably not.

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

Four screws hold that Mini-PL lens-mount module on. Unscrew those and you'll be able to put any one of the new DSMC mounts on any of the new cameras (except the fixed Scarlet - that lens is permanently attached). So you can get a PL mount ($500 iirc) and use your 16mm optics, or use 35mm glass with that mount or a Nikon or Canon mount (but remember that 2/3" sensors are fairly small compared to 35mm, so you your field of view will be far narrower with 35mm glass. So a 18mm lens on a 2/3" camera looks the same as something like a 50 to 70 mm lens on a 35mm camera).

Same with batteries - the battery module fits on both Scarlet and Epic. There will also definitely be a way of connecting the current RED batteries and other V-Lock batteries. You may need to buy a different plate, but probably not.

If this is correct than a lot of good super 16 optics will "come back to live".
Anyone can second the above?

 

[Joseph Hutson]

My real name is Jonathan Burton,

Cheers-

Hey, Jono has been banned, but he's posted his real name. Not sure if he was banned for another reason than the real name policy

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If this is correct than a lot of good super 16 optics will "come back to live".
Anyone can second the above?

It's true. All the DSMC brains, with the exception of the fixed-lens Scarlet, use the same mount system. All lens mounts are field-changeable via 4 bolts. There will be electronic mounts for Nikon and Canon lenses as well as the upcoming RED electronic mount. There is also a smart PL mount supporting /i and LDS lens protocols, mini RED mount, etc.. I'm expecting a B4 mount with optical correction as opposed to using a PL mount with a B4 adapter.

The 2/3" Scarlet is going to be a great camera for 16mm PL glass.

 

[Sean Finnegan]

The 2/3" Scarlet is going to be a great camera for 16mm PL glass.

How can we know this for sure? From what I've read, there's a good amount of people who seem to think there will be some issues with cropping.

 

[Michael Hastings]

All lens mounts are field-changeable via 4 bolts. ...

Not to be a pest, but is this stated officially somewhere? After all, the adjuster on the R1 is just four bolts as well and that's verboten.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

How can we know this for sure? From what I've read, there's a good amount of people who seem to think there will be some issues with cropping.

Yes, there will be some cropping relative to 16mm/S16 because the 2/3" Scarlet has a smaller sensor or image area. So one would need to use appropriate focal lengths for the job at hand.

For example, a typical 16mm film frame is 10.26mm wide by 7.49mm high for full aperture. Super16 is 12.5mm x 7.4mm.

Mysterium-X 2/3" 3K should be 9.26mm x 5.19mm (based on what we think we know).

So, for comparison, an 8mm focal length would give the following AOV's

8mm on MX2/3" = 60.12°
8mm on 16mm = 65.34°
8mm on S16 = 75.99°

For comparison, RED One 2K is 11.06mm wide. An 8mm focal length on RED One at 2K would give an AOV of 69.30°.

Another way to put it is that MX2/3" should have a crop factor of 1.34X relative to S16mm, 1.1X relative to 16mm and 1.19X relative to RED One @ 2K.

So an 8mm focal length on 2/3" Scarlet would be equivalent to using an 8.8mm (call it 9mm) on a 16mm camera and RED One @ 2K. It would be equivalent to using a 10.72mm (call it 11mm) on Super 16. The trick once again will be filling that wide end of the focal length range. in the world of 2/3" imagers, really wide lenses are 5~6mm. In 16mm land, 7~9mm are the wide extremes.

But as a frame of reference, a 9mm focal length on 2/3" Scarlet would give a 54.44° AOV. That would be the same as using a 35mm focal length on an FF35 sensor or the same as using a 21mm on RED One @ 4K, 22mm for S35...

Not to be a pest, but is this stated officially somewhere? After all, the adjuster on the R1 is just four bolts as well and that's verboten.

Yep. Don't have the link handy, but (Jim has said it :emote_headwall several times and same with Jarred. The 4 bolts are easily seen in all the current DSMC prototype pics. 4 bolts to change the mount, back foucs adjustment is manual and moves the sensor block relative to the mount, not an adjustment of the mount itself as it is on the RED One.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Hi there,
I know and I'm convinced that primes are batter than zooms in terms of image pure quality, aperture and so on but how are the Mini Primes ?
I saw at endgadget the video where Ted shows the Scarlet with one of the Mini Primes and god it IS mini ! So in terms of image quality and sensor covering and so on, do we know anything ?
And what about using follow focus ? Will there be a Mini Pro Zoom ? (or what zoom from an other brand can be recommanded ?)

In fact, beside Red's Mini Primes, which primes kit would be recommanded (and if possible in the same price range... I know it is not possible but dreaming....)

EDIT : I forgot to ask this : do the mini primes work with the upcoming Red Matt box ?

 

[Dave Edsall]

The real question with using 16mm optics on the 2/3" Scarlet is sharpness and resolution. It would be great to use some standard 16mm optics older Canon Zooms or the older Zeiss 10-100 which you can find pretty cheap now since they won't cover S16.

But will these lenses be sharp enough and provide enough resolution for Scarlet? I know that 2k on R1 starts to become quite soft and 16mm optics used in conjunction with 2k on the R1 really demonstrate the lack of resolving power.

I wouldn't run out and buy 16mm optics until someone gets a chance to test it out on a working Scarlet. I'm excited to see the results though

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The mini primes are very intriguing. And they are very small, but the specs look good. If they are of the same quality as the Red Pro Primes, then they will be an amazing deal.

There really are no other prime sets out there that will compliment the camera like this. Closest would be the Zeiss DigiPrimes, which are amazing lenses, but designed for 3-chip cameras, which means adding a more expensive mount to the camera with optical correction (B4 mount). Each DigiPrime costs about the same a full set of RED mini primes and in some cases a bit more.

Some sets of Super16 primes may be attractive, but usually they don't go much wider than 8 or 9mm. Which will probably be OK for most people unless they like the stylistic choice of really wide angles. I'm a wide angle nut myself... I've seen some sets of Lomo S16 speed primes for sale for around $12~$17K. Given that, I really don't see how anyone wanting primes can pass up the mini primes. RED is going to sell a boat load of these.

As Dave's comments about resolving power of 16mm and S16mm glass. That is definitely something to consider. I think we need to see some tests with common 16mm lens options on the new cameras to get a definitive answer. But I think the results will be good. Many 35mm lenses used on the RED or film, especially a lot of the coveted older glass like the Cooke 20-100 and 18-100, Panchro Sii/Siii, Angenieux 25-250, etc.. don't have superior MTF numbers or resolving power by any means. And yet, they still produce beautiful images.

I would also be curious about resolving power of many B4 "HD" lenses out there that I know a lot of people will end up using. I'm hoping RED will also offer a pro zoom in addition to the mini prime kit.

 

[Sean Finnegan]

The engadget video confirms a rough estimate of $900 per RED mini-prime, and roughly $5,000 for a full set of five. So if the brain alone is $2,750 then its pretty feasible to build a fully working SCARLET cinema for $10,000 give or take - correct? I mean, I'm new to RED but would batteries, media, accessories cost over $3,000? Obviously it depends on what I get as far as those things, but what about bare essentials?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

According to the november 30th announcement, mini primes are $950 each. Ted also said so in the Engadget video. There's been hints of a possible discount for the complete set.

RED is offering the fixed-lens Scarlet at $4750 with a basic accessories pack included. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the ability to buy a similar add-on accessories pack for the interchangeable brain. Similar to the base production pack offered for the RED One. But I think $10K is definitely do-able for a 2/3" kit with primes. If we figure $2750 for the brain, $4750 for the set of mini-primes, that leaves $2500 for some accessories. It won't be an extensive kit by any means for that budget, but should get you everything you need to shoot. More than the accessories for that kit on that budget, what I would be concerned about is the media. I'm hoping some lower cost 16GB and 32GB storage options are available by then.