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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Jim, Jarred, discussion on 1080p out

Jay A. Kelley said:
Tim, why do you say Scarlet instead of Epic? Is not Epic simply a Scarlet with more abilities?

I agree in that I do not expect RED to create the modules I asked for.. But if the 1080 out is what I expect it to be, there will be other options available.

Jay
Click to expand...

Well if the R1 alraedy seems to be overkill for this application, then imho EPIC is way overkill for interviews. In our market we will have 2 EPIC and 1-2 SCARLET S35 BRAINS (with multiple modules)) for CINEMA STYLE and then will have 2 to 4 Scarlet Fixed Packages with Red Gunner, Side Handles etc, for exactly these kinds of shoots as we seem the latter RED as EX-1 and HVX-200 replacements, which you mentioned in earlier posts...

and agree, "baking in" on record, makes me more comfortable using a 3rd party recorder when FLUT is released.

However, if you are in a market where you want "One Camera to Rule Them All" to borrow from Tolkien, then it makes sense to have your Swiss Army Knife.

I just dont see the value of tying up an expensive EPIC BRAIN on that type of shoot in our market. Thats all. Horses for Courses.
 
jay just to clarify, do you want a 1080p quicktime which can be edited immediatly or a way to capture stuff to hdcam.

1. if they use avid they are forced to transcode to dnxhd anyway, so its not an immidiate editing experience, with adobe you can edit immediatly but the lack of TC reading is the dealbreaker for most. with fcp you can use the m-proxies up to two layers, if not you have to transcode again to pro res, which you have to do with other formats too.

2.with hdcam you have to ingest, which takes time again.

just want to understand what your client is actually asking for? what codec in 1080p do they need, or do they need 1080p uncommpressed, which can be edited too (i wouldnt do it, just asking if that is the case)

edit: great would be if epic can create a 720p/1080p prores or dnxhd along the r3d now.

but it doesnt makes sense to through in ressources for this, because the NLE situation changes every 18 months and i guess painless native r3d editing with TC reading etc. is not soo far away.
 
Tim, be sure you have the perspective correct. It's not that I am getting a huge Epic for Interviews.. It's that I am getting an Epic for high end work, and it's potential ability to cover for other shoots as well just makes it that much more valuable.
Jay
 
I'm with you on this one Jay.

For years I did corporate video work for various producers who, at the end of the day, just wanted to take the footage with them so they could begin editing.

The expectation was for professional results and deadlines ruled the day. Trust me when I say that minutes counted.

These gigs were my bread and butter, and with times being what they are I may go back to them.
 
So Jay,

No one is questioning your passion or knowledge, but as it stands right now the raw computing power you need to do this is a four thousand dollar REDROCKET card.

I want these features as much as you do. It's hard to service the Networks and ENG style shoots with the RED. If they want a tape style turnaround then, while I love my RED, it's not the tool for the job.

Yes, recording to a flash drive is a great idea, but even the CF cards are not fast enough for the faster REDCODES (42, 100) coming down the pipe.

Yes, omboard processing that would deliver Prores 4444 down the HDSDI pipeline would be a great feature (but can that processing power be packed into an EPIC body).

As much as I want my RED to be a Real time machine, the fact is there is nothing really real time about a RED workflow. I think that all of the features you want are great ideas, i'm just not sure how possible it is.

The RED folks seem pretty smart to me, and I imagine that this would have been a goal at some point in development. I am almost certain that they get this, and if it was possible they would do it.

Just my respectful two cents.

David
 
I haven't really seen any official info on the forum, concerning the 1080p formats. That's why it was one of my biggest questions for Ted as he joined me for a talk earlier this month.

On the podcast and at the 16:02 mark, I ask him about 1080p...

(In case you missed it) :cheers2:
 
I have to say I'm with Jay on this one.
I said the same thing when the Red came out and the "scalable" output of the camera, hinted at in 2006 with the clay model, turned out to be "scalable in post.
For 50%-75% of my overall client base, REALLY NICE 1080p files with a PL-mount is all the camera needs to be.
For close to 100% of my corporate clients, this is true. And NONE of the corporate folks want complicated post.
Hoping that my Epics will be all things to all people... ;)
Cheers,
Harry
 
Jeff Coatney said:
This is a great opportunity for a third party company to create an Epic/Scarlet output module based on the new Red SDK.
Click to expand...

But even that has to be based on the quality of the signal coming out if the RED in the first place.

David


I'm with all of you on the corporate stuff, my approach has been to educate the client (wherever possible) and have a good plan in place going into the shoot.

When they can't accept the plan, I look for an appropriate tool.


David
 
The question is "what 1080P format"? 1080P RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed is a lot of data. Think of it as three uncompressed nearly-2K files per frame, one each for red, green, and blue. I don't think that's what your clients really want delivered to them. If not, then what? An established codec?
 
If red opens up module creation to third parties, perhaps one could license proRes 4x4 or DNxHD and record the 40MBs stream simultaneously. You'd have the RAW recorded, and the module would generate instantly editable footage good enough for finish.

Some will probably argue that the reference quicktimes already meet this need.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The question is "what 1080P format"? 1080P RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed is a lot of data. Think of it as three uncompressed nearly-2K files per frame, one each for red, green, and blue. I don't think that's what your clients really want delivered to them. If not, then what? An established codec?
Click to expand...

For those who don't have time to listen to the podcast, Ted said that the scaled 1080p codec of choice will be .r3d files and as far as an RGB file, there is an ongoing discussion among the RED team about this matter.

They achieve this by putting the same type of processing power in the camera, as the RED Rocket™ has. The camera does real-time transcoding to the 1080p sized .r3d files instead of doing the post process of real-time transcoding to 1080p.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The question is "what 1080P format"? 1080P RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed is a lot of data. Think of it as three uncompressed nearly-2K files per frame, one each for red, green, and blue. I don't think that's what your clients really want delivered to them. If not, then what? An established codec?
Click to expand...

David,

You make an excellent point. What would that codec be? DVCPRO HD? APPLE PRORes? AVID DNX? XDCAM?

Would RED have to licence the use of any of these codecs?

(Rhetorical)
Would Panasonic care if a RED was spitting DVCPRO out the ports?
Would SONY care if it was XDCAM?

The further down the rabbit hole we go the less feasible this seems....I'm not trying to rain on anyone's hopes but I think if it was possible we would already have it.

Also, the strange thing is that it is actually easier to deliver uncompressed because there is no compression and decompression (CODECing) that needs to take place with that signal (which, as we know takes an enormous amount of processing power with R3D).

So how do you convert live image from a CMOS sensor, record it RAW and send out a compressed 1080P?

We hope it's doable, but is it doable?


David
 
Joseph Hutson said:
For those who don't have time to listen to the podcast, Ted said that the scaled 1080p codec of choice will be .r3d files.

They achieve this by putting the same type of processing power in the camera, as the RED Rocket™™ has. The camera does real-time transcoding to the 1080p sized .r3d files instead of doing the post process of real-time transcoding to 1080p.
Click to expand...

This will be interesting to see. That means an module with all the power of a 4700$ PCI card built in.

Big bonus for us. I hope it sends out matching Timecode and 8 tracks of audio as well. That's about as powerful than a KONA 3 card is right now.


Cool.

David
 
Of course RED will not make a module spitting out Apple Sony or Panasonic codecs. There are however a number of recorders using P2 other cards and hard drives that take the HDSdi signal and record in a format the client is familiar with. Usually Apple unless made by Sony or Panasonic since Apple is not protecting any cameras yet.

Problem is then how to give that data to the client without delay as you would give them a tape. Actually for these kind of jobs tape is to be preferred. Seems a bit complex to be setting a studio Panasonic or Sony deck on the counter to record the interview might be ok but the B roll will really suck.
TJ
 
tj williams said:
Of course RED will not make a module spitting out Apple Sony or Panasonic codecs. There are however a number of recorders using P2 other cards and hard drives that take the HDSdi signal and record in a format the client is familiar with. Usually Apple unless made by Sony or Panasonic since Apple is not protecting any cameras yet.

Problem is then how to give that data to the client without delay as you would give them a tape. Actually for these kind of jobs tape is to be preferred. Seems a bit complex to be setting a studio Panasonic or Sony deck on the counter to record the interview might be ok but the B roll will really suck.
TJ
Click to expand...

TJ,

I know this. That is why the questions were rhetorical. My point is that anything coming off the camera will need to be transcoded on the fly to "some" codec that "some" client is demanding in Real time and that takes hard core computing POWER.

The same problem exists with all tapeless workflows. One client wants XDCAM, the next wants Panasonic P2.

Maybe for 900 bucks i'd just buy another RED DRIVE and hand it to the client with my FEDEX number to ship it back to me after they hand it to their editor, who can download the FREE RED tools, deal with it, and ship back my drive in a day or two.


David
 
David Battistella said:
TJ,

I know this. That is why the questions were rhetorical. My point is that anything coming off the camera will need to be transcoded on the fly to "some" codec that "some" client is demanding in Real time and that takes hard core computing POWER.

The same problem exists with all tapeless workflows. One client wants XDCAM, the next wants Panasonic P2.

Maybe for 900 bucks i'd just buy another RED DRIVE and hand it to the client with my FEDEX number to ship it back to me after they hand it to their editor, who can download the FREE RED tools, deal with it, and ship back my drive in a day or two.


David
Click to expand...

My current plan is to use the NanoFlash. A small HD-SDI recorder that records a variaty of codecs in different flavors.

I seem to remember someone on here also mentioned a similar P2 suggestion. So unless RED comes out with their own module (which I doubt) I hope to use these solutions with the 1080p HD-SDI port.

I only hope there are no unpleasent surprises in this area.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Tim, be sure you have the perspective correct. It's not that I am getting a huge Epic for Interviews.. It's that I am getting an Epic for high end work, and it's potential ability to cover for other shoots as well just makes it that much more valuable.
Jay
Click to expand...

I think I did have the perspective right Jay, clearly you want one camera to rule them all, and there is nothing wrong with wanting that! :thumbsup:
 
David Battistella said:
TJ,

Maybe for 900 bucks i'd just buy another RED DRIVE and hand it to the client with my FEDEX number to ship it back to me after they hand it to their editor, who can download the FREE RED tools, deal with it, and ship back my drive in a day or two.


David
Click to expand...

Heh heh heh.. If I tried this with my corporate/TV sports clients, (Telling them to just download RED's free tools, learn how to use them, transcode an hour or two of footage, and THEN start editing) they'd pat me on the head, laugh in my face, and call the next guy with their chosen file format to replace me... Permanently.

Guys that write checks usually expect I will accomidate them, not the other way around.

I'm just sayin

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Heh heh heh.. If I tried this with my corporate/TV sports clients, (Telling them to just download RED's free tools, learn how to use them, transcode an hour or two of footage, and THEN start editing) they'd pat me on the head, laugh in my face, and call the next guy with their chosen file format to replace me... Permanently.

Guys that write checks usually expect I will accomidate them, not the other way around.

I'm just sayin

Jay
Click to expand...

Yeah.. I know Jay. It's a pickle I have been on more than once. I just wish it was simpler too.


:)

David
 
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