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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why Epic over Scarlet?

T

Tim Hayes

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So my plan was to buy an Epic, and for the most part it still is... but since the Nov 30th announcements it seems like the difference between Scarlet and Epic is drastically shrinking.

Right now (as far as I can tell) Epic has the following that Scarlet doesn't:
  • REDCode 250
  • Faster frame rates at higher resolution
  • Scene overlay

That appears to be it.
And Epic is $21K more expensive then the S35 Scarlet.

Don't get me wrong. I love what RED is doing, and I think they could charge a lot more for any of their cameras, I'm just trying to figure out if Epic is worth that $21K more (Which I'd be happy to give RED).

I've shot a bunch of projects from commercials to indie films, and it seems like 90% of what I do is at 24 or 30fps. I finally did a commercial last month where we shot maybe 40% of it high speed. The high speed functionality of Epic will be very welcome addition, but at the same time, I don't know if I need it day to day.

Since we don't seem to know a lot about the new REDCodes I'm not sure yet how REDCode 250 vs. 100 will affect the image. If it is a huge leap, then that is a great plus for the Epic's higher rate and might be worth it.

I really want the Epic - I want the best camera I can get from RED. But the business side of me wonders if that is a smart investment. Is there anything besides those three features listed above that Epic will have that Scarlet won't?

From a rental standpoint do you think commercials, indie films, and studio films will choose Epic over Scarlet just for those three features alone?

Anybody else having the same questions I do?

I really want to put my passion and money into Epic, but I want to make sure that it's the smartest decision I can make, because that $21k could also go to a set of primes, and that has appeal too.
 
If someone needs higher frame rates they will be willing to pay more for them. If higher frame rates are not needed a scarlet is more than capable.
 
Faster frame rates do take a lot of resources, better cooling, faster electronics and what not.

Epic have another professional functions that Scarlet does not, I guess that cost good money too.
 
epic will be released 1st.
so if you have projects it makes sense.

i can trade my 2 year old RED for the full price.
it earned its money back.

the 10 k difference i have to pay should be back in 4-5 months if everything goes the wrong way.

so if you dont have a red, dont need high speed and have enough time, scarlet would be the better option.
 
Buy a scarlet for yourself if you don't have a Red now, and if needed, rent an Epic brain for a day or few if you need the extra power.
 
I've been having the exact same thoughts, except I purchased R1 fairly recently with the EpicX upgrade in mind.... not so sure that I did the right thing anymore (speaking purely from the investment standpoint, R1 is still an awesome camera!), for the same reasons you listed above.

I think that the Scarlet S35 will pretty much kill the Epic market, at least for those who don't consider $21,000 a chump change or see the high frame rates and 5k a must have.
As a freelancer, I think it will be very hard to justify higher day rates for Epic (over Scarlet), unless client specifically requests shooting at higher frame rates or 5k.



I'm very excited about the EpicX upgrade and I'm grateful about the generous trade-in deal we are getting but still cannot help but think that for the price of the Epic brain alone, I can have a Scarlet S35 and a set of Red Pro Primes. That's nuts.

I'm surprised that this topic is not discussed more.

Cheers,

Milan

PS Price the S35 at $15k and this dilemma is no more. ;)
 
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Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Epic have another professional functions that Scarlet does not, I guess that cost good money too.
Click to expand...

What are those features besides the ones I've listed up above?

Epic coming out before the S35 Scarlet is a good point. And the Epic jobs I get in that time period might more than make up for the added Epic cost. (Assuming I do the Stage 2 upgrade).

So is faster frame rates the only real advantage of Epic over Scarlet?
What I worry, is that Scarlet will be the day to day camera, and Epic will be the one or two day rental cam when production needs high speed.

Those of you buying Epics, what are the major reason you're doing so?

Do you think savvy producers will pick the Epic over Scarlet (if they don't need highspeed or only limited amounts of it), or just save money and rent a Scarlet?

-

(And no, I'm not asking RED to raise the price of Scarlet, I'm just trying to weight the pros and cons of an S35 Epic purchase compared to an S35 Scarlet purchase and what I use on the various productions (or more or less what the producer is willing to pay for on various productions)
 
Epic also has ramping abilities, or more so than the Scarlet. At least that has been said in the past.

Ultimately, I think we're all just guessing until final specs on all the cameras are released.

I think EPIC will be the more desirable rental than the Scarlet, just in case they decide they need an overcranked shot at some point or decide that an in-camera ramp would be appropriate. For FX guys, or even just trying to match up to a previously shot setup, the overlay feature will be huge. It's a collection of little things that will make EPIC better. For the average customer or average indie filmmaker, I see Scarlet being the more sensible choice though.
 
Tim Hayes said:
From a rental standpoint do you think commercials, indie films, and studio films will choose Epic over Scarlet just for those three features alone?
Click to expand...

My guess is the Epic will be very popular with high end commercials where high speed and speed ramping are very common.

I think films will rent the S35 Scarlet kit for the whole shoot and an Epic brain for the days they need to do high speed or ramping. The DSMC system will make this very easy.
 
Stephen Strangways said:
It was also mentioned some time ago that Epic will be a better built, more durable body: Scarlet bodies would be cast and Epic would be milled, but I'm not sure if that's still the plan.
Click to expand...

if this is true, i could imagine Epic having none of the collimation issues associated with the aluminum mount on the Red, which would be great. In a large package, the difference of 100-200/day for a camera that can be more reliable would be well worth it.
 
I think 18 months from now is when this conversation will really come into play. :blink:

In the meantime the answer is simple.

Having a 6-8 month head start is priceless in this industry. I would probably end up paying $10-$15k in rental just waiting to buy a Scarlet.

In this case all I would have is a $22k Scarlet! :out:

My R1 has paid itself off. For another $10k I'll have an Epic, half a year plus in front of the herd.

So by the time everyone is stepping over themselves trying to get a Scarlet S35, I'll have a fully paid Epic at my disposal forever! :thumbsup:

Now in 18 months from now this won't be the case, and this conversation will take on new meaning. When you can walk in off the street and either get an Epic or Scarlet, you will have to give each feature a value and figure it out.

In the meantime, no brainer! :sifone:
 
jimhare said:
I think 18 months from now is when this conversation will really come into play. :blink:

In the meantime the answer is simple.

Having a 6-8 month head start is priceless in this industry. I would probably end up paying $10-$15k in rental just waiting to buy a Scarlet.

In this case all I would have is a $22k Scarlet! :out:

My R1 has paid itself off. For another $10k I'll have an Epic, half a year plus in front of the herd.

So by the time everyone is stepping over themselves trying to get a Scarlet S35, I'll have a fully paid Epic at my disposal forever! :thumbsup:

Now in 18 months from now this won't be the case, and this conversation will take on new meaning. When you can walk in off the street and either get an Epic or Scarlet, you will have to give each feature a value and figure it out.

In the meantime, no brainer! :sifone:
Click to expand...

for $10.000 you will be the "herd"...
 
what i guess is that it will be popular to shoot with 2 cams or 3 and when needed 4.

so you rent 2x s35 scarlet kits and one epic brain maybe.

2nd thought:

but you never know....maybe epic and R1 updates are free and new scarlet builds will cost money...or scarlet updates will only be released when not in beta anymore, which would give epic owners an advantage?

or simply...if i remember correctly.....high frames cost money
 
I think you pretty much covered it.

If high frame rates aren't important the additional cost of Epic isn't necessary. Overlay, etc might need a little extra processing but really what you're paying for are framerates. I'm personally really thankful that RED isn't arbitrarily distinguishing Epic and Scarlet. I don't need the processing power that is demanded by doubling the frame rates so Scarlet is great for me.

One feature you did miss is Anamorphic de-squeeze. It's only been listed on Epic--which is annoying since it doesn't strike me as a processor intensive feature and really just an artificial product distinction. I hope RED is doing everything in their power to deliver as much in each as possible on each platform and not giving bonus features to Epic just to try and make it more attractive.
 
What exactly the REDCODE difference could be a major factor. Will it be an increased range? Can you shoot lower light levels? That would be more huge for me than frame rate. The R1 is hungry for light unless you have lots of it available. Eventhough the epic is in theory more sensitive, cleaner lower light shooting is a major plus because it means less expensive light packages and easier lighting often. Does the Scarlet have the same range?
 
IMHO Red could have created a clear distinction between the Scarlet and Epic lines by making the Epic Monstro based and the Scarlet M-X based (plus the 2/3" and other non-Monstro variants). My guess, just a guess mind you, is that they considered this but did not want to delay Epic until the Monstro sensors were ready.

Greater DR, lower compression ratios and higher frame rates are a potent combination for professional work.

To follow up on Justin's note about interchangeability between the Scarlet and Epic modular systems it could be a compelling strategy. Imagine that you are an owner-operator, indie filmmaker, etc trying to make a business case for owning rather than renting gear - Scarlet's price point is your friend. So you own a Scarlet and rent an Epic Brain (perhaps with specific modules as required for that day) only when necessary. Your post workflow is essentially the same so all that investment (hardware, skill set development, etc) retains its value. Intercutting footage with the same underlying pedigree is likely to be easier than cutting in film, Phantom or some other format. People are already talking about Epic as the "A" camera and Scarlet as the "B" camera on shows that prefer having 2 bodies.

Obviously this is all speculation until they are both shipping, but, what the heck, this is RedUser - home of the dream :cheers2:

Cheers - #19
 
Milan Spasic said:
I've been having the exact same thoughts, except I purchased R1 fairly recently with the EpicX upgrade in mind.... not so sure that I did the right thing anymore (speaking purely from the investment standpoint, R1 is still an awesome camera!), for the same reasons you listed above.

I think that the Scarlet S35 will pretty much kill the Epic market, at least for those who don't consider $21,000 a chump change or see the high frame rates and 5k a must have.
As a freelancer, I think it will be very hard to justify higher day rates for Epic (over Scarlet), unless client specifically requests shooting at higher frame rates or 5k.



I'm very excited about the EpicX upgrade and I'm grateful about the generous trade-in deal we are getting but still cannot help but think that for the price of the Epic brain alone, I can have a Scarlet S35 and a set of Red Pro Primes. That's nuts.

I'm surprised that this topic is not discussed more.

Cheers,

Milan

PS Price the S35 at $15k and this dilemma is no more. ;)
Click to expand...
you wish.. but then there wouldn't be 7 up to 9 s35 scarlets in order just in my group

weiss.. sent you pm
 
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