Best way to telecine 23.98 to 29.97?

[Matthew Rogers]

Okay gang, I've got a client that I am shooting RED for tomorrow that I normally shoot 24P on a smaller HDV camera. I normally give them 23.98 ProRes files from the HDV to edit with for the TV spots. However, they just plop the 23.98 files into a FCP 29.97 timeline and let FCP do it's horrible frame add. So here's my question.... What's the best way to telecine the prores files up to 29.97 so the frames added are much smoother than FCP random frame add. Is there a program that I can batch run the clips through to telecine them up? I believe CinemaTools will do the job, but if I remember correctly, the last time I tried using it, it didn't look any better than what FCP.

Any suggestions? I have the Nattress filters, but it's kinda a pain in the butt to use on 40+ clips.

Matthew

 

[Frank Cueto]

Do u have After effects?

If so, its very easy.

 

[Paul Rosckes]

There's no reason to convert the source material from 23.98 to 29.97 prior to editorial. Instead, you client should just work in a 23.98 timeline in order to create the "master". Once you have a 23.98 master, it is a very simple process to add field-based 3:2 pulldown to create a 1080i/29.97 "release master" for broadcast. Or, if the broadcaster is 720p, you can downconvert AND add a frame-based 3:2 pulldown to create a 720p/59.94 release master.

BTW, I really should have called the 1080i release master "1080i/59.94", because when talking about 1080i HD, the framerate is usually described in "fields per second", instead of the old-school 29.97 NTSC "frames per second" (for what it's worth, ALL of the old standard-def NTSC is actually running at 59.94 fields per second).

Of course, getting your client to change the way they're used to editing might be a battle you would prefer not to fight. But, this IS the way that most professionals work with 23.98 material.

Good luck!

-Paul

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I don't understand... if the client is going to edit and deliver 29.97 why aren't you shooting 29.97?

That said, are they using FCP or FCP+Cinema Tools? If they aren't using Cinema Tools, then mentioning it to them with a quick tutorial might be a solution.

Of course, like Paul said, I prefer to edit 24p then handle format conversions at the end of the editorial process.

You could help them with that by asking them to edit 24p then either doing the 24p to 29.97 conversion for them or showing them how with the software they already have.

 

[Frank Cueto]

There are reasons to apply 3:2 pulldown to ur footage prior to editorial.

1) client only has SD system capable of 29.97 or 59.94
2) they would like to avoid the weaving of two frames into the same one (it happens on about 60% of your cuts when u convert an edit to to 29.97 from 23.976) Specially, IF for any reason they are going to another tape based system down the road (like a DaVinci)
3) they could have a VERY short deadline, better to get everything done upfront.

Mathew, if u want, i could write a step by step for After effects on how to do this.
Let me know

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I don't understand... if the client is going to edit and deliver 29.97 why aren't you shooting 29.97?

That said, are they using FCP or FCP+Cinema Tools? If they aren't using Cinema Tools, then mentioning it to them with a quick tutorial might be a solution.

Of course, like Paul said, I prefer to edit 24p then handle format conversions at the end of the editorial process.

You could help them with that by asking them to edit 24p then either doing the 24p to 29.97 conversion for them or showing them how with the software they already have.

Okay, I'm going to be a jerk first (in fun mind you...) Why did they shoot TV shows and commercials on film (and still do) when there are video cameras? Because it looks better!!! Even though they are local car ads, the 24P adds a "slightly" more polished looked (they are local car ads, so polished turd in reality!) So while I shoot in 24P, they edit in 29.97 because the spot ends up in SD. I would ask them to edit in 29.97, but some of the older footage they use is 29.97 already, along with motion graphic elements that are also interlaced. So asking them to edit in 24p ain't gonna happen. So I wanted to try and give them footage that was already 29.97, but from the 24p I shot.

Mathew, if u want, i could write a step by step for After effects on how to do this.
Let me know

That would be great Frank as I have AE. As long as it can batch and keep the same file names I am good. I may have found a way to batch with FCP and Nattress's G AddPulldown (add all the clips to the bin, select all, add filter and then batch export to a ProRes 29.97 format.)

Matthew

 

[Frank Cueto]

Ok, I will post a walk-thru with pics tomorrow.

I am off to SUSHI for tonite. Going to celebrate we just got hired to POST our third red feature =)

Will post that tomorrow.

 

[Paul Rosckes]

There are reasons to apply 3:2 pulldown to ur footage prior to editorial.

1) client only has SD system capable of 29.97 or 59.94
2) they would like to avoid the weaving of two frames into the same one (it happens on about 60% of your cuts when u convert an edit to to 29.97 from 23.976) Specially, IF for any reason they are going to another tape based system down the road (like a DaVinci)
3) they could have a VERY short deadline, better to get everything done upfront.

Mathew, if u want, i could write a step by step for After effects on how to do this.
Let me know

I'll address each of those responses individually:

1) The original question mentioned editing in FCP which has had 24p editing capabilities for well over a decade. Also, when dealing with 24p source material, editing and finishing at 24p has been the most common practice since HD was introduced. This is why 1080p/23.98 is known as the "universal mastering format". Any other format (HD, SD, web, etc) can easily be struck from a universal master. If you finish at 1080i, then cross-converting to 720p (or any other frame-base format) will always result in a lower-quality product and the possibility of visual artifacts.

2) If you have to take a submaster through a Da Vinci (or any other CC system), it's much easier to keep everything 24p (especially if you're doing any repositions or defocusing). It is a much simpler process to keep the whole workflow 24p until the very end. Even if someone at some point in the future has to work with the 1080i version in the future, it's trivial to remove pulldown when there is a consistent cadence from start to finish (in fact, it's a nightmare dealing with masters that have varying cadence from shot to shot). And those cuts that are composed of two different fields are NEVER visible in real-time playback.

3) Having a short deadline is a perfect reason for NOT processing all of your source material prior to edit. Adding pulldown to a 30-second master is much less time-consuming than adding pulldown to a couple of hours worth of source footage. Also, if there is a need to do any fixes of visual effects, it is far less laborious to work directly with the original 24p material.

Naturally, there are a million different ways to finish a project, and everyone has different opinions on what works best. But, having worked as an online editor and visual effects artist for the past 20 years on every different type of source footage imaginable, I would almost always opt for a 24p finish. I have chosen to finish in 1080i on a handful of jobs when there were special circumstances (like needed to mix sources from different formats and framerates).

-Paul

 

[Frank Cueto]

I'll address each of those responses individually:

1) The original question mentioned editing in FCP which has had 24p editing capabilities for well over a decade. Also, when dealing with 24p source material, editing and finishing at 24p has been the most common practice since HD was introduced. This is why 1080p/23.98 is known as the "universal mastering format". Any other format (HD, SD, web, etc) can easily be struck from a universal master. If you finish at 1080i, then cross-converting to 720p (or any other frame-base format) will always result in a lower-quality product and the possibility of visual artifacts.

2) If you have to take a submaster through a Da Vinci (or any other CC system), it's much easier to keep everything 24p (especially if you're doing any repositions or defocusing). It is a much simpler process to keep the whole workflow 24p until the very end. Even if someone at some point in the future has to work with the 1080i version in the future, it's trivial to remove pulldown when there is a consistent cadence from start to finish (in fact, it's a nightmare dealing with masters that have varying cadence from shot to shot). And those cuts that are composed of two different fields are NEVER visible in real-time playback.

3) Having a short deadline is a perfect reason for NOT processing all of your source material prior to edit. Adding pulldown to a 30-second master is much less time-consuming than adding pulldown to a couple of hours worth of source footage. Also, if there is a need to do any fixes of visual effects, it is far less laborious to work directly with the original 24p material.

Naturally, there are a million different ways to finish a project, and everyone has different opinions on what works best. But, having worked as an online editor and visual effects artist for the past 20 years on every different type of source footage imaginable, I would almost always opt for a 24p finish. I have chosen to finish in 1080i on a handful of jobs when there were special circumstances (like needed to mix sources from different formats and framerates).

-Paul

Hey , all your points are VERY valid, but you have to remember something, not everybody has hardware that can keep up...

Some facilities have DUI davincis that would have a HELL of a time with a frame with two fields from different images... and thats just ONE example.

 

[M Most]

Some facilities have DUI davincis that would have a HELL of a time with a frame with two fields from different images... and thats just ONE example.

Actually, DaVincis have always been able to handle field 2 edits as long as you enable field marking in the list. The built in scene detector can detect both field 1 and field 2 edits and mark the list correctly. This has been the case even prior to the Renaissance line.

And one comment regarding proper use of terminology. Telecine is a film to tape transfer process, or the machine used to transfer film to tape. Adding 3:2 pulldown to a digital file is not telecine, it is simply adding 3:2 pulldown to change a 24 frame progressive stream into a 60 field interlaced one.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Then CRAP. I could NEVER get our Renaissance or our DUI to do the infamous field 2 edits, so we always resorted to prepping edits in smoke and making sure that the pulldown wouldn't mix 2 frames from different cuts. Good advice, just a bunch of years too late =)

 

[Paul Rosckes]

Hey , all your points are VERY valid, but you have to remember something, not everybody has hardware that can keep up...

Some facilities have DUI davincis that would have a HELL of a time with a frame with two fields from different images... and thats just ONE example.

That is true! I have been fortunate enough to have access to fairly "current" hardware/software throughout my career. And I have run into facilities whose owners just refuse to buy new gear and move forward (even though it will end up saving them time and money in the long run!)

-Paul

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I always work with 23.976 RED proxies all the way through the offline, stay 23.98 in the online/grading/compositing phase and export a 23.98 master that I then convert as a last step to a 29.97 Field dominant master. No need to convert till the end. Any BMD or Kona outboard hardware is capable of doing an on the fly frame rate conversion if your outboard monitor is incapable of viewing 23.98 frequencies. Set it to 29.97 and you will see pulldown in the playback.