2/3 Fixed Scarlet Kit vs. 2/3 Scarlet Interchangeable compared to EX1, EX3, EX1r

[Nuno Ribeiro]

EX1r $6300
2 batt $500
4 16G cards $2120

total $8920 (around 9000)

is the difference in price justifiable for the difference in capabilities. Consider DSMC is infinetly upgradable. plus try selling your EX1 half a year from now.

hope you make the best choice.
just trying to help.

 

[Russ Blaise]

4 16G cards $2120

Sony is coming out with a new line of cards that are much lower in price.

Either way I still come out much cheaper... and I don't plan on selling anything.

 

[Ryan B]

EX1r

EX1r

I think the RED cameras are going to be great, but for my needs, I want to get as much for my money as I can. The other thing is, the EX1r is available now.

EX1r offers a lot for it's price tag and like you said is available now! As far as media it just keeps getting larger, faster and more affordable. For the EX line of cameras there are options. You can get a Hoodman Raw Adapter(I own) and use sdhc cards or Sony has their own adapters too(memory stick). Smaller capacity SxS cards are coming down in price too if you need all the frame rates for less money.

The Nov. 30th announcement I thought was really encouraging. At least we have a better idea where Red is at and can make better buying decisions now or in the near future.

Like I said I own an EX3. It creates amazing images. I have a dlp projector that displays 1080 in my editing room projecting an image 12' wide. I've created both SD and Blu-rays from XDCam 35 mb/s HQ files everyone is really amazed how good it looks. Though r3d files I'm sure will blow it out of the water. I still see compression artifacts when I watch store bought Blu-Rays of my favorite movies. So there is room to grow on that end too I think. Maybe Red Ray is the answer! The images I saw projected at last years Red Party looked gorgeous!

Anyway I hope the EX1r works out well for you!

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I think you all missed the calculation.. hope I'm not wrong..
if you want both options.. you can simply buy 8x fixed scarlet pkg for $4750 then buy a 2/3" cinema interchangable brain.. for extra $2750..
now you have base accessories and two brain options for two different situations add $500 for the glass you have now.. or later start investing on red mini primes.. the base package is $7500 you have both options with accessories from fixed pkg.. you will have 2 brains.. that's a big deal..
as the thread was started the concept was adding up extra $3100 over the $4750 (scarlet fixed price) to get an interchangable only lens option.. my way is adding only $2750 (scarlet interchangable price) and have it all.. then start planing storage media and other stuff, mounts, etc..

 

[Ryan B]

Buy 2/3 Fixed and Interchangeable Scarlet...

Buy 2/3 Fixed and Interchangeable Scarlet...

I think you all missed the calculation.. hope I'm not wrong..
if you want both options.. you can simply buy 8x fixed scarlet pkg for $4750 then buy a 2/3" cinema interchangable brain.. for extra $2750..
now you have base accessories and two brain options for two different situations add $500 for the glass you have now.. or later start investing on red mini primes.. the base package is $7500 you have both options with accessories from fixed pkg.. you will have 2 brains.. that's a big deal..
as the thread was started the concept was adding up extra $3100 over the $4750 (scarlet fixed price) to get an interchangable only lens option.. my way is adding only $2750 (scarlet interchangable price) and have it all.. then start planing storage media and other stuff, mounts, etc..

I hear what your saying and it sounds good. I guess I was under the impression that the Fixed 8X Scarlet was just that. A more Fixed stand alone setup. So if I understand what your saying the modules could be taken(off)the 2/3 Fixed 8X Scarlet and used on the 2/3 Scarlet Interchangeable? Someone else mentioned something about some of the I/O is built into the body of the Fixed Scarlet. So I wonder now what parts/modules are interchangeable off the Fixed 8X Scarlet that one could use for the 2/3 Scarlet Interchangeable(or any other RED)that you've suggested you'd do.

I'm certainly interested in the many ways you can configure the REDs. Oh and you brought up a good point about the additional stuff like media, storage, mounts, etc. I was just looking at a starting point hoping it would be enough to at least begin shooting and later add all the extras like you mentioned. I have some CF, storage, and other parts that may already be usuable with Scarlet-but no Scarlet.

 

[Joe Carney]

If I was going with the EX1R, i would also need a HDSDI capture card and raid storage to capture uncompressed before converting to something else.
With Red, Redcode 42 gives me equivalent quality without the need for Raid or capture card.
For a basic shooting package, Scarlet Fixed, 2 CF cards, and hood for the LCD monitor. Maybe a handle, but I prefer to shoot either on a tripod or hire someone with a glidecam.
Don't forget, there will probably be great (relatively affordable) options from RedRock and Letus to add support for Nikon and Canon glass.
Having HDMI out for preview will be great too. If you haven't figured out by now, I want to shoot features, including scifi and horror along with short narratives.

 

[George Tsai]

My Tentative budget so far stands at
$ 36,500.00

To include:
FF35 $10,000.00
2/3" $ 2,750.00
Lens mount $ 1,000.00 (two of them (canon), assuming the camera comes with pl mounts already. if not then this would be $2000)
Lenses $10,000.00
EVF/LCD $ 2,400.00
Battery Mod $ 2,500.00
Base Plate $ 1,000.00
Base I/O Mod $ 1,750.00
Mod Adaptor $ 600.00
SSD $ 3,000.00
side handel $ 950.00
redmot $ 550.00

theres basically two of each since i plan on getting two. i think i got most of the prices right based on the nov. 30 announcement

Really would like to purchase the Bomb evf but i think it'll be too much for my budget. who knows tho i just might go crazy and get one anyways:nads:

 

[Ryan B]

EX1r to hdmi capture...

EX1r to hdmi capture...

If I was going with the EX1R, i would also need a HDSDI capture card and raid storage to capture uncompressed before converting to something else.
With Red, Redcode 42 gives me equivalent quality without the need for Raid or capture card.
For a basic shooting package, Scarlet Fixed, 2 CF cards, and hood for the LCD monitor. Maybe a handle, but I prefer to shoot either on a tripod or hire someone with a glidecam.
Don't forget, there will probably be great (relatively affordable) options from RedRock and Letus to add support for Nikon and Canon glass.
Having HDMI out for preview will be great too. If you haven't figured out by now, I want to shoot features, including scifi and horror along with short narratives.

Your right Red has many advantages and I'm sure when Scarlet is out that will solve a lot of the challenges. Till then with an EX1r you can capture via hdmi to intensity card, or to an aja, or to a nano. Intensity I believe would be the least expensive but require a computer and a pci slot to do so-but you should be able to capture directly to prores instead of uncompressed.

Believe me I think Red Scarlet sounds really great and can't wait for it to come out!

Good luck with you features and narratives!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

I hear what your saying and it sounds good. I guess I was under the impression that the Fixed 8X Scarlet was just that. A more Fixed stand alone setup. So if I understand what your saying the modules could be taken(off)the 2/3 Fixed 8X Scarlet and used on the 2/3 Scarlet Interchangeable? Someone else mentioned something about some of the I/O is built into the body of the Fixed Scarlet. So I wonder now what parts/modules are interchangeable off the Fixed 8X Scarlet that one could use for the 2/3 Scarlet Interchangeable(or any other RED)that you've suggested you'd do.

The RedMote, LCD, Side CF module and battery are all removable and usable with any other camera in the DSMC system. The only thing permanently attached to the Fixed Scarlet brain is the lens. Remember that this is a modular system - you don't have to buy a new camera for, say, a bigger screen, as you do with some other camera companies.

As for I/O, (based on renders and what we've heard - may end up being slightly different) all the brains have two balanced 3.5" inputs on the front, and what looks like HDMI, headphones, power in (and maybe out) a connector for a RED-Drive, and an LCD/EVF connector. All this a part of the actual brain - not any modules.

If you want more I/O, you can get the basic IO module (has mini-XLR audio, HD-SDI and so on, or the pro IO, which has more including full size XLR audio inputs.)

 

[Russ Blaise]

I can't see where the battery goes on the Scarlet Fixed. What does it look like?

 

[Ryan B]

2/3 Fixed Scarlet upgradeable...

2/3 Fixed Scarlet upgradeable...

The RedMote, LCD, Side CF module and battery are all removable and usable with any other camera in the DSMC system. The only thing permanently attached to the Fixed Scarlet brain is the lens. Remember that this is a modular system - you don't have to buy a new camera for, say, a bigger screen, as you do with some other camera companies.

As for I/O, (based on renders and what we've heard - may end up being slightly different) all the brains have two balanced 3.5" inputs on the front, and what looks like HDMI, headphones, power in (and maybe out) a connector for a RED-Drive, and an LCD/EVF connector. All this a part of the actual brain - not any modules.

If you want more I/O, you can get the basic IO module (has mini-XLR audio, HD-SDI and so on, or the pro IO, which has more including full size XLR audio inputs.)

Excellent! Thanks for clearing that up. So basically the 8X Fixed Scarlet sounds like an excellent affordable way to get started with Red! When your ready to add another brain to you Kit most of the already purchased modules from the Fixed 8X Scarlet are compatible with every new Brain they will be selling in 2010 and hopefully the 3rd Generation and so on. This is nothing like the other typical Cameras currently being sold on the market today. I think I'm beginning to grasp the modular concept?! :smile5:

 

[Bayden Docking]

most of the already purchased modules from the Fixed 8X Scarlet are compatible with every new Brain they will be selling

This is why i will be buying a scarlet.

 

[Bryce Lansing]

I use my Nikons on my Bolex 16mm, and my 16mm fisheye works decent for a wide lens (probably equal to about a 35mm lens on full frame). Considering a 16mm frame is 10mm wide, and a 2/3 inch sensor should be 15mm wide (1 in. = 25mm x 2/3 = 15mm) it should be even wider than on a R16 frame right?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

2/3" is not the measurement of the width, it's a measurement of the diagonal I believe, and not even of the actual active pixel area, but I believe a measurement of the larger wafer or whatever it is cut from (or the explanation below).

Anyway, the active pixel area of a 2/3" sensor is typically around 9.58mm x 5.39mm, whether or not RED decides to stick to that standard. Though some websites state that 2/3" sensors are 8.8mm x 6.6mm.

So regular 16mm lenses would cover that area.

This is what dpreview says:
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=sensor+sizes

Sensor Type Designation

Sensors are often referred to with a "type" designation using imperial fractions such as 1/1.8" or 2/3" which are larger than the actual sensor diameters. The type designation harks back to a set of standard sizes given to TV camera tubes in the 50's. These sizes were typically 1/2", 2/3" etc. The size designation does not define the diagonal of the sensor area but rather the outer diameter of the long glass envelope of the tube. Engineers soon discovered that for various reasons the usable area of this imaging plane was approximately two thirds of the designated size. This designation has clearly stuck (although it should have been thrown out long ago). There appears to be no specific mathematical relationship between the diameter of the imaging circle and the sensor size, although it is always roughly two thirds.

There's also a discussion here why 2/3" sensors have a 11mm diagonal:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31133

 

[Bryce Lansing]

Oh wow, that's kind of dissapointing.. So not only is it smaller than a S16 frame, but it's even smaller than an R16 frame?

Shows I've seen shot on the Viper and f23 look like they get an acceptable amount of shallow DOF, how is that if the sensor is so small?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

It's a 2.5-stop difference in depth of field with Super-35 once you match field of view, stop, and distance. Movies shot on 2/3" cameras like "Benjamin Button" are often using f/2.0 zooms and f/1.6 primes, shooting wide-open, so the depth of field is similar to shooting 35mm a little past f/4, which is not horrible in terms of extra depth of field. Particularly in a long-lensed close-up.

If the 8X Scarlet zoom is around f/2.4-ish, then that will be like shooting at f/5.6 on a Super-35 camera, which is not too bad.

 

[Daniel Valle]

My budget is at around 9K. These are savings I didn't intend on burning on a camera, but I think it's worth it.

So at first my plan is to buy the fixed 2/3, earn some money with it, then sell the brain/lens, keep the modules and buy the S35 brain.

If RED by any chance puts out a "basic production kit" of the S35 under that limit I'll probably skip the 8x fixed, since I already own a few (cheap) Nikon lenses.

And I'd keep buying still glass at a regular pace until I have around 8 lenses or so that satisfy me.

I don't know if my current Mac would handle 5K footage, but until I'm able to upgrade I'd be happy shooting most stuff in 1080p and narrative works in 3K.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's a 2.5-stop difference in depth of field with Super-35 once you match field of view, stop, and distance.

I think this needs to be made into a banner at the top of the forums for as often as you type it. :biggrin: