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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

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person

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Hi all
Was wondering how to word to the RED DP the proper aspect ratio.

End project will be HD 16:9 protected for 4:3 center extract. 23.98 FPS. Subsequently will be on broadcast TV.

Should they shoot 4:3 4K so that we can have real estate top and bottom? Or just shoot 16:9 4K? And what are the exact setting terms to say for either?

And for sound there are two ways to do record. Vers 1 is to record it to the r3d file and 2 is to files that I then have to sync with pix. I would like both and how should I say it?

Also, if they have a certain look they want the color to be they should include an RSX file no?

I uses RR to make my DNx/ALE files.

Thanks much.
 
If this is for HD and SD broadcast, I would shoot 4K HD mode, aka "Quad HD", which is 16x9 but 3840 x 2160, which downconverts more cleanly to 1920 x 1080. Or you can shoot regular 4K 16x9.

You can set up 4x3 framelines inside 16x9 if you want to, but generally you'd finish to 16x9 full-frame HD and then make a 4x3 PAL or NTSC center extraction from that, so you don't want to limit yourself to shooting and recording in 4x3. Since HD is always 16x9 and SD can be either 4x3 or 16x9 (anamorphic) and uses less resolution than HD, it's better to extract the SD version from the HD master.

In theory, final broadcast master will be Rec 709 color space, but whether you want to make Rec 709 part of your metadata settings for transcoding purposes, and for on-set monitoring purposes, or create Rec 709 during post color-correction from the RAW originals, it's up to you -- the project will need to be color-corrected anyway.
 
thanks

thanks

"If this is for HD and SD broadcast, I would shoot 4K HD mode, aka "Quad HD", which is 16x9 but 3840 x 2160, which downconverts more cleanly to 1920 x 1080. Or you can shoot regular 4K 16x9."

Thanks much for the info.
What is the frame resolution of regular 4K 16x9? Just curious.

And I have worked with RED before where I received an image that was 4K or 2K (can't remember) 4:3 that was intended to be 16:9 and protected for center extract 4:3. This gave us more image above and below what was going to be shown in the end in case we wanted to re-frame a few shots. Similar to working with 35mm for HD 16:9 finish. Is there a setting name for this?

Thanks again
 
person said:
Thanks much for the info.
What is the frame resolution of regular 4K 16x9? Just curious.
Click to expand...

Regular 4K (16:9) is 4096x2304.

person said:
And I have worked with RED before where I received an image that was 4K or 2K (can't remember) 4:3 that was intended to be 16:9 and protected for center extract 4:3. This gave us more image above and below what was going to be shown in the end in case we wanted to re-frame a few shots. Similar to working with 35mm for HD 16:9 finish. Is there a setting name for this?
Click to expand...

It could not have been 4:3 if it was 4K - in digital cinema resolutions, the horizontal dimension stays the same while the vertical dimension changes. 4K 4:3 would be 4096x3072 pixels, which is not only far more resolution than the RED ONE could process, but it is also larger than the RED ONE's sensor.

I think that really, it's fine to shoot Quad HD (aka 4K HD), because when you have four times the resolution of your end format, reframing is really not an issue. You could cut down to half your resolution and still be downrezzing the footage to get to 1080p!

By the way, is this actually going to be broadcast in 4:3 on SD? I didn't know they still did that - in Australia all the stations are 16:9 (except for some pay TV ones, but there's a lot more free to air TV here than in the US as far as I can tell, so a lot less people have pay TV)
 
thanks

thanks

"By the way, is this actually going to be broadcast in 4:3 on SD? I didn't know they still did that - in Australia all the stations are 16:9 (except for some pay TV ones, but there's a lot more free to air TV here than in the US as far as I can tell, so a lot less people have pay TV."

The broadcast center extracted 4:3 thing is a pain. And it is alive and demanded here in the US by many stations. Drives DP's nuts (and editors). Would love for all the stations to go 16:9 and just letterbox for the SD 4:3 TVs. All the action and graphics has to be framed 4:3 within a 16:9 world and can make for some challenging situations if it falls outside the lines.

Thanks much for the info. Sound like it is best, if they ask, to go 4K HD. But I will certainly check with the agency to make sure they understand what they see is what they get. They are accustomed to being able to repo shots with 35mm in telecine. And it has come up recently on a project I was working on before where a director told an agency ECD there will be more information top and bottom to work with but in the end there was not because of the 16:9 setting they used on the RED cam. The ECD was upset when he wanted to repo a shot and could not. Lost trust with the director.

Thanks again for the info.
 
Even if your shooting 4k 16:9 for a 16:9 finish, you can still repo shots so long as you are willing to blow them up a little. You have 4096 x 2304 to make 1920 x 1080. You have options.
 
Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, you can shoot on 4K HD, transcode and edit in 1920 x 1080 ProRes HQ in a ProRes HQ timeline, send to Color Correction with a workflow allowing access to R3D files and repo shots as needed, send back to AVID, then create a 720 x 480 timeline and copy and paste the sequence into the new timeline. Center the footage on this new timeline and you've got your SD version for 4:3 air today with a 16:9 archive copy for later.
 
Thanks

Thanks

David,
Thanks for the heads up. Went to my user CP settings and don't know how to change the name. Do I have to re-register?

Tyler,
I'll edit via the Media Composer and create an EDL. From there I take the files to a colorist/online shop that uses Quantel's iQ with Pablo Neo. It can work natively with the 4K files. Pretty slick. We are also making webisodes to go along with the broadcast. In that work flow I will edit in MC, conform in Color, and send the project to an FCP/AfterEffects editor. There is a guy the agency wants to work with to do the webisode finish otherwise I could just finish in the MC for these.

J. Eric,
That is certainly an option, but it depends on how it was shot. If there is no room for blow up from an aesthetic point of view, then it is what it is.

Here's a link to AICE's HD recommendations for broadcast page. Talks about aspect ratios and protecting for 4:3.
http://www.aicetoo.org/hdinitative/format.html

Thanks again.
Kelly Vander Linda
 
person said:
Here's a link to AICE's HD recommendations for broadcast page. Talks about aspect ratios and protecting for 4:3.
http://www.aicetoo.org/hdinitative/format.html
Click to expand...

That's basically what I said -- you create a 16x9 HD master from which you can make a 4x3 center extraction for 4x3 full-frame SD broadcast.

4x3 and 16x9 would share the same top & bottom framelines though. In order to do vertical repositioning, you would have to zoom into the frame first.
 
person said:
"in Australia all the stations are 16:9 (except for some pay TV ones, but there's a lot more free to air TV here than in the US as far as I can tell, so a lot less people have pay TV."
Click to expand...

Actually, it's dual broadcast in Australia. They send out 16x9 HD/SD digitally and still broadcast 4x3 as Analogue, which is ARCed from the 16x9 stream live.

I imagine it's the same around the world, until they discontinue Analogue. They keep moving the date back for this...
 
Thanks David
I knew what you were talking about. Just posted the link for others. So is there no 4:3 HD setting in RED? Meaning a resolution that would be great enough to satisfy repositionable image in 1920X1080 HD?

See this link for an example I created where an image would be shot 4:3 raw, knowing it would then be 16x9 HD (1920X1080) in the end, but protected for 4:3 center cut. In the image it is a bit tight on the guys head, and would require a repo to give him some head room.
http://collective-edit.com/4x3raw_with_16x9frame&4x3center_cut.jpg

thanks
 
The RED sensor is 16x9 in shape and 4K across, so to record a 4x3 image file, you'd have to chop the sides off of the sensor image and get less than 3K across.

Though that's more or less what happens in RED's 4K ANA format, you are basically cropping the sides of the sensor towards a square shape that is more like 2.8K across or something like that -- because an anamorphic lens has a 2X squeeze on it.

So I guess you could use a regular spherical lens and record 4K ANA mode to get closer to a 4x3 image that is 2.8K or so, but what's the point? Then you'd have to crop that 2.8K image top & bottom to get 16x9. You might as well record a 4K 16x9 image and crop the sides to get 4x3.

Remember that 4x3 is generally for standard def broadcast and 16x9 is for high-def broadcast, so there is a greater need for the 16x9 version to have more resolution than the 4x3 version. You can crop 16x9 to 4x3 but since the 4x3 version is for standard-def, you don't really see the resolution loss when starting out with high-def 16x9.

There is no 4x3 HD setting also because there is such thing as 4x3 HD in broadcast video. All HD video formats (720P, 1080i, 1080P) are 16x9 and any "4x3" HD versions are just side-matted 16x9 recordings.

Now there are some RAW cameras with 4x3 or square sensors - the ARRI D21 and the Phantom HD basically -- but most HD and higher cameras have widescreen sensors.
 
And for sound there are two ways to do record. Vers 1 is to record it to the r3d file and 2 is to files that I then have to sync with pix. I would like both and how should I say it?
Click to expand...

Tell them you want to record double-system sound with a back-up feed to the camera.
 
David,
Thanks much for the information. Helps greatly. I and some of my clients have been led to believe that shooting 4:3 4K is a simple setting in RED. And that some of my clients believe it is possible to have greater landscape available in post for repositioning. Will make sure they understand that what they see is what they get unless they make some custom settings work out. I will simply tell the DP, if asked, the final product will be 23.98 FPS 16:9 HD protected for 4:3 center cut SD. They can figure out the proper settings to make it happen.

Tyler,
Thank you as well for the audio lingo.

It's a little different than sending dailies specs these days. :)
 
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