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Color Grading Pro Plasma or Projector?

Tony Augustinack

Tony Augustinack

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I am looking for an affordable Color Grading option. What would you recommend between one of the Panasonic Pro Plasmas? (either 11 or 12 series?) Or would I be better to go with the Pansonic PT-AE3000U projector? I can work in a complete dark room and the room is big enough for either. I am just looking for a affordable way to Color Grade and to use it as a client playback monitor.

Thanks for any advice!
 
Projector all the way. You will want a way to calibrate it. Look at the X-Rite and CalMan for relatively inexpensive projector calibration.

If you have room for a projector, and would still consider plasma, then the 65" Panasonic 12-series would be worth considering. But it may end up being more expensive than the projector, don't forget to factor in your projection surface, though.

IMO, all things being equal in terms of grading ability, a projector is better suited for grading productions that will be seen projected in larger venues like a theatre. A large projected image seems to have more impact on your clients than a smaller plasma screen. And you said "affordable", so I don't think you want to consider the 80-105" plasmas as an option. :)

"Affordable" is the Panasonic 1080p 42" 1080p 12th-gen pro monitor. They currently don't offer, nor have they announced, a 1080p 50" 12-series. I've seen the 58" 12 series 1080p calibrated and running a feed from a Kona3 card -- wonderful monitor. I'm personally using a Panasonic TC-P46xx something it's a 46" 1080p panel, 12th gen but not "pro". Truthfully, the only difference between it and the "pro" models is that you have to get to the fine-tuning controls through the somewhat hidden service menu and no optional add-on cards for SDI, etc.. HDMI out of a Kona LHi looks wonderful as does DVI from the RED Rocket. Can't wait until the RED Rocket w/ BOB supports 10bit HDMI, that should improve the picture a bit more. This is my temporary grading monitor until I build my screening room with projector. The 46" only cost me $1200 and I see the same version of the display without the extra memory card reader and a few things I don't need is under $1K now (TC-P46S1).
 
I've got the new 65" Pro Plasma (PF12) so by next week, my grading room will be finished renovating and can give you the report comparing to the BVM-D24. I'm also receiving the Klein K10 with Calman this week.
 
We have an AE3000U, and even calibrated it doesn't really come too close matching calibrated professional desktop displays, and I suspect it isn't the displays that are at fault. The AE4000U is out now, and supposedly has better color, but I think a plasma is probably still a better choice for color-accurate monitoring, at least until you can afford a substantially more expensive projector.

If anyone does have experience getting the AE3000U to be accurate enough to plausibly use for color-accurate viewing, I'd be very interested to hear about the process, though. This would be extremely useful to us.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Incidentally, has anyone figured out for certain if the new PF12 models finally do 10-bit color over HDMI?
Click to expand...

Panasonic assure me they do but it is unverified. the old HDMi card was V 1.2A and was 10 bit the new ones are said to be V1.3 which is also 10 bit.
 
We use the TH 42PF11EK which is a great monitor but does need proper calibration The 42 is not available int he 12 series as yet. So far as i know the 12 is higher contrast ratio but both are fit for purpose.
 
projector...

projector...

I'd say it depends if You grade for a cinema or a HDTV.

From my painful experience, with Barco, it is MUCH easier to see some slight colour shifts than with any LCD or plasma. It is simply huge screen.

So, apart of various discussions of how dark is black on LCD or plasma displays and how it can be calibrated or not, if You have enough money to build a large room and buy an expensive DLP projector, then this is the way to go. If You only have money for some cheap projector, on the other hand, I'm not sure. Then large plasma might work better for You. Or LED backlit LCD. The larger the better, every single inch counts. And in every case, it MUST be hardware calibrated, xRite works just fine, remember for projected image, You need more expensive device than for a display.

I use calibrated high end Eizo LCD and yes, I finished color grading of a feature film for cinemas, but it was minimally uneasy.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Incidentally, has anyone figured out for certain if the new PF12 models finally do 10-bit color over HDMI?
Click to expand...

Depends on who you talk to. Some Panasonic guys swear up and down that the 11-series models support 10bit over HDMI, but they do not. Some swear the 12-series do, but I have yet to verify this. Currently, the 12-series are still using the same HDMI module used by the 10 and 11 series displays. I believe Kaku Ito posted that a Panny tech told him they would be updating the HDMI module in the near future. On the bright side, it would be a function of the add-in module itself because the display is more than capable, obviously. So adding an upgraded HDMI module as it becomes available would not be a big deal, other than a few more $$$...

Only way to know for sure is to hook one up to a confirmed 10bit source and see what happens. Like I said, I've seen the 58" 12-series in action and it's great. If I didn't already have my 46", I probably would've ordered one on the spot. I look at my office wall and think, Yeah, I could make it fit. :)
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Depends on who you talk to. Some Panasonic guys swear up and down that the 11-series models support 10bit over HDMI, but they do not. Some swear the 12-series do, but I have yet to verify this. Currently, the 12-series are still using the same HDMI module used by the 10 and 11 series displays. I believe Kaku Ito posted that a Panny tech told him they would be updating the HDMI module in the near future. On the bright side, it would be a function of the add-in module itself because the display is more than capable, obviously. So adding an upgraded HDMI module as it becomes available would not be a big deal, other than a few more $$$...

Only way to know for sure is to hook one up to a confirmed 10bit source and see what happens. Like I said, I've seen the 58" 12-series in action and it's great. If I didn't already have my 46", I probably would've ordered one on the spot. I look at my office wall and think, Yeah, I could make it fit. :)
Click to expand...

From what Ive found so far the Existing HDMI card, I dont have a number for it, is Rev 1.2A which Pana say is 10 bit but is actualy 8 bit. The yave just released their new HDMI card which is rev 1.3 (deep coulour support) and should support 10 bit. So I think if the new card is installed then the 11 and 12 series monitor is 10 bit capable.
 
As mentioned, are you talking HD or Cinema (DCI/film)?
If Cinema you really need wide-gamut... look at a Dreamcolor (in P3 colour-space - but you might need to correct it from default) for your grading monitor and reference it with a Panasonic Plasma for your clients "big-picture". The Panasonic probably wont show the same contrast, but they'll be a similar "look" with some tweaking
We run 2 x PTAE3000's for stereo projection alongside a Barco DP90 for grading... the 3000's aren't grading projectors by any stretch.
The Dreamcolor is also reasonable for HD if you get a decent calibration puck.....
good luck with your choice.
 
Thanks for all the advice and input! It is all HDTV work. I just wanted to see if the PT-AE4000 would work because I have a big room and it would double as my home theatre. But from what I've gathered going with one of the panasonic plasma's would be a better choice?
 
I didn't realize the Panny 3000's were that bad for color work. That's scary that Chris says they're not up to the task and yet he's also recommending a Dreamcolor. Dreamcolor is nice, but it's not up to snuff with a good plasma or other projectors on the market, IMO.

For those considering the Dreamcolor, also take a look at the new LED LCD HDTV's from LG and Samsung. They're just about as good as a plasma in most ways and the blacks are very good for an LCD. A bit muddy in spots, but I find these displays to have their biggest weakness at the bright end of things. They tend to show some banding or lack of gradations compared to the plasmas in the bright whites. But I would definitely put these up against a Dreamcolor and even the 9 and 10 series Panny pro plasmas. Another nifty feature with these LCD's is with their 120 and 240 Hz panels, they can take a 24fps signal and actually play back true 24fps.
 
I am also looking to get a monitor for grading HD material. When I was at B&H they had the Samsung LED LCD sitting above the Panasonic plasma, I think it was a G10 or 11 (the tag said it was 1080p). To my eye, and my buddies, the Samsung looked much sharper than the G10 and had good blacks. I also looked at the 42 Pro Plasma Series 11 in the Pro room at B&H and that looked miles better than the TV Logic LCD they had there for 12K or whatever it was. I am planning to run the monitor with the HDMI inputs. Is there a reason that folks here are loving the Pro Plasma that I am not seeing. What is the reasoning behind not getting the Samsung LED if any? I just can't fit em both on my wall!
 
It's not about looking good, it's about looking accurate!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I didn't realize the Panny 3000's were that bad for color work. That's scary that Chris says they're not up to the task and yet he's also recommending a Dreamcolor. Dreamcolor is nice, but it's not up to snuff with a good plasma or other projectors on the market, IMO.
Click to expand...
Just a horses for courses thing, Jeff.
For "fiilm" work, put just about any HD projector up against a TI or Sony chipped one, and they won't cut the mustard. Just a different league. Studio features have very specific quality requirements so "matching" film is still very costly.
As far as Dreamcolor's go, when you've got several hundred artists to cover, they are the best bang-for-buck that we've found as replacements for Sony CRT's. We can get a very good "film" emulation for either dim-office environments or dark-room environments with appropriate LUT's and internal gamma, white point & luminance settings with these displays.
We don't as yet use them for broadcast mastering, they just don't have the contrast range of a Broadcast CRT, and there are some very subtle colour differences (to broadcast monitors) that for us make them not quite right to use just yet. That said, we can tweak them more than the Panasonic displays, of which we use the 50" Pro Plasma's as the "client" monitor in our TVC suites.. but we have to select to preference either the blacks or highlights... you can't have both... :-(


cheers
Chris
 
Just a question about the Panasonic PT-AE3000U projector, what are its shortcomings as a DI grading projector ? is the newwr AE4000 any better ?how close can it be calibrated to the
DCI spec ? Any other projectors in its price range that anyone else can recommend.
Any thoughts on this really appreciated.
 
Panny Pro Plasma sources

Panny Pro Plasma sources

Anyone out there who has taken delivery of and is happily using the Series 12 Pro Plasma...

Amazon is offering the TH-50PH12UK for under $1,200! That seems like a heckuva deal. I am missing something? I know it only includes the component and HDMI input boards (the HD-SDI board would cost extra) but even so...

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Anyone out there who has taken delivery of and is happily using the Series 12 Pro Plasma...

Amazon is offering the TH-50PH12UK for under $1,200! That seems like a heckuva deal. I am missing something? I know it only includes the component and HDMI input boards (the HD-SDI board would cost extra) but even so...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Isn't this model only 720P?
 
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