Smoke on MAC is here!!

[Bruce Allen]

Judging by how long it's taking to download the video, I think a few folks are interested!

Currently I use Media Composer Software ($2500) for creative editing. For finishing...

1. I currently get by with Media Composer & After Effects (w/ Sapphire, Tinderbox, Primatte etc) & FCP & Color for finishing. A bit of a hodgepodge... especially when you add in Maya and Nuke! If I want to take it to a post house for a few hours with an Avid DS or Smoke for finishing tweaks with a proper monitoring environment:
a) It'll take hours (ie cost money) to bring the project over.
b) I can't bring the project back into my Media Composer. I'm stuck going out of house at $150-300/hr for further finishing tweaks.

or

2. I can upgrade it with a Mojo DX to help give me real monitoring (for $5000?!?!) so I spend less time in a finishing house - but that doesn't get me past the hodgepodge aspect of my setup.

or

3. I can buy a $15000 Smoke license, start finishing it myself, then bring my already-set up project on a drive over to a post facility with a fancy $100K projector, make more tweaks, then bring the project back with me. Hire freelance Smoke guys if I need it - otherwise I'm a pretty good generalist and can do stuff myself if I'm not busy (CO3 likes my grades and my friends at Asylum and Method like my VFX). Hopefully I can also can stay a little more in one program without going over to After Effects so often. Neat!

RE: data transfer limitations... I already have a very fast homebuilt RAID array (8x 2TB drives, RAID6 - cost under $2500 for drives, enclosure and card) that gets close to 500MB/s and would for sure if I allocated a part of it as RAID0.

When USB3 or Light Path hits Macs then you'd be able to get the transfer rate easily even without a a RAID. Heck, for something short-form, just plug in 5 or so of those 300MB/s USB3 flash drives and software RAID 'em

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I find it slightly strange because there is no OSX Lustre is there? I thought Lustre was originally Win32. Seems like it would have been natural to release a Win32 port so that they could sell Smoke as an editorial tool and stretch the capabilities of the single system setup for high end commercial finishing. Wasn't that the idea behind Lustre HD? Offer a companion to Smoke/Flame?

Maybe sidestepping from Linux to BSD was easier.

 

[Simon Blackledge]

No sdi out for rt grading on osx. Nvidia driver issue.

Bruce.. no plugins yet

also unsure on RT HD on a external monitor at the mo.

s

 

[M Most]

I find it slightly strange because there is no OSX Lustre is there? I thought Lustre was originally Win32. Seems like it would have been natural to release a Win32 port so that they could sell Smoke as an editorial tool and stretch the capabilities of the single system setup for high end commercial finishing. Wasn't that the idea behind Lustre HD? Offer a companion to Smoke/Flame?

Maybe sidestepping from Linux to BSD was easier.

Lustre was on Windows primarily because it was originally an acquired product, not one developed by Autodesk/Discreet. The original product (Colossus, developed by 5D using technology licensed from Colorfront) was coded for Windows, so the quickest way to get an Autodesk version was to continue on that platform. The Linux port was done fairly quickly, and brought it in line with the other Systems products. I'm not sure they're even continuing the Windows version on Lustre 2010 (are they?) as Windows really isn't a strategic platform for them these days, other than for the CGI products (Max, Maya, and Softimage). I would suspect, however, that the work they did in moving the Smoke codebase to OS X can be leveraged fairly rapidly to do the same for the other Systems products (Flint, Flame, Inferno) as well as Lustre if they choose to do so.

 

[Stefan Christou]

For anyone hating the slowness of the fxguide video, at about 3:20 the guys from Autodesk are asked how they came up with the price, their answer is basically that it is as much as they thought they could get away with. Nice.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

...................I would suspect, however, that the work they did in moving the Smoke codebase to OS X can be leveraged fairly rapidly to do the same for the other Systems products (Flint, Flame, Inferno) as well as Lustre if they choose to do so.

That would be welcomed!

 

[Bruce Allen]

No sdi out for rt grading on osx. Nvidia driver issue.
Bruce.. no plugins yet

Yeah, and when they come out I bet they're overpriced - I'd still do my heavy comping in AE / Nuke.

This just seems like a much better solution for putting together everything than FCP (eg gamma correction hell, sucks and is slow with image sequences) and Media Composer (not as bad but Smoke's color warper etc are obviously a step ahead).

also unsure on RT HD on a external monitor at the mo.

According to fxguide it's less realtime than Linux (because they're using AJA card in conjunction with non-SDI nVidia card). Can do realtime 2-stream dissolves.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[M Most]

According to fxguide it's less realtime than Linux (because they're using AJA card in conjunction with non-SDI nVidia card). Can do realtime 2-stream dissolves.

If I'm not mistaken, what was said was basically that real time viewing is there (in the GUI), but they cannot do real time playout (i.e., to a video master). I can't say I'm surprised in the sense that nobody else has really solved that on the Mac, either, at least not if the data has to pass to the GPU and then back through the bus to another card to do the I/O. The lack of Nvidia SDI support from Apple is a very serious Achilles' heel for high end work that requires real time video formatted output with GPU assisted functionality.

 

[jake blackstone]

Lustre was on Windows primarily because it was originally an acquired product, not one developed by Autodesk/Discreet. The original product (Colossus, developed by 5D using technology licensed from Colorfront) was coded for Windows, so the quickest way to get an Autodesk version was to continue on that platform. The Linux port was done fairly quickly, and brought it in line with the other Systems products. I'm not sure they're even continuing the Windows version on Lustre 2010 (are they?) as Windows really isn't a strategic platform for them these days, other than for the CGI products (Max, Maya, and Softimage). I would suspect, however, that the work they did in moving the Smoke codebase to OS X can be leveraged fairly rapidly to do the same for the other Systems products (Flint, Flame, Inferno) as well as Lustre if they choose to do so.

Yes, Lustre 2010 has a Win 32 version. With Wiretap it can be incorporated into the rest of the facility for background rendering.

 

[Greg M]

selling Flare to non-Flame owners would be a colossal fail...I just cant see this happening.
Smoke makes sense...especially when you consider that its not really competing with the Smoke 2K system, which is still only linux and hardware dependent.

 

[Emery Wells]

selling Flare to non-Flame owners would be a colossal fail...I just cant see this happening.
Smoke makes sense...especially when you consider that its not really competing with the Smoke 2K system, which is still only linux and hardware dependent.

Colossal fail from the perspective of someone who has invested in flame. I would be upset too. But why, other than destroying your investment, would it be such a failure?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I've been thinking a lot (for obvious reasons) about Smoke on Mac. And...

For about the same price, you can put together a system with the CS4 Production bundle and Rocket Fuel.

And then you have a 100% complete realtime native R3D system that does REALTIME full resolution, full debayer/demosaic for editorial, compositing, color, finish, and output.

But it's not on a Mac.

For me - this whole thing comes down to a very simple PC vs. Mac thing.

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
-------------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Ben Rojas]

Played w/it a couple of days ago... It's a beautiful thing :thumbsup: I look forward to having one kickazz SMACK in 2010!

As for RED workflow... I cut a sequence together (with H ref QT), exported an XML, opened it in WireTap Central (software comes w/Smoke), tweaked the parameters (many options, most from REDCine, and no, I didn't get in depth enough w/respect to what's happening debayer-wise or color science, etc. etc., my list was long and I had to move on), WireTap grabbed the R3D files from my XML and started converting them to DPX, I opened Smoke, imported the XML and wala, I was rockin' and rollin'! As for the RED/QT ProRes option, not there yet. Probably by NAB.

You can work in 2K or 4K (and with DPX, you better have a boatload of storage) and output files accordingly. Output to tape is HD 1080 4:4:4 via the Kona 3.

Hmmm, what else, what else... Man, there's a lot and for an x-Smoke guy (only because the price to upgrade from my old SD Smoke was very costly compared to going w/a DS Nitris), I'm very excited to having FCS, CS4 & Smoke on one box... Now that's power! And dropping a RED Rocket in there won't hurt either ;O)

 

[Emery Wells]

You should know Lucas that CS4 and Smoke are quite different animals. We have CS4, FCS, Media Composer, Nuke, and a FULL Tricked out Scratch system (which we love) but we still very badly need a system like Smoke. Smoke isn't a replacement for an AE/Premier setup. I'll still be doing comps in AE or cutting in Premiere (final cut in my case). What smoke will allows is a worflow suitable for client supervised sessions, full editorial while working high quality DPX sequences, sophisticated paint and tracking and it's all in one app. If you need to make changes you aren't jumping through 3 apps. It will really be the perfect companion to our Scratch.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

You should know Lucas that CS4 and Smoke are quite different animals.

Emery,

Yes - I certainly get that. : )

But... Smoke's appeal in many ways is as a client-supervised system.

Will SmokeHD... without Batch... without LUTs... without GPU->SDI... will it be a valid client-supervised system?

This is not a rhetorical comment - I'm asking.

Lucas

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Played w/it a couple of days ago... It's a beautiful thing :thumbsup: I look forward to having one kickazz SMACK in 2010!

As for RED workflow... I cut a sequence together (with H ref QT), exported an XML, opened it in WireTap Central (software comes w/Smoke), tweaked the parameters (many options, most from REDCine, and no, I didn't get in depth enough w/respect to what's happening debayer-wise or color science, etc. etc., my list was long and I had to move on), WireTap grabbed the R3D files from my XML and started converting them to DPX, I opened Smoke, imported the XML and wala, I was rockin' and rollin'! As for the RED/QT ProRes option, not there yet. Probably by NAB.

You can work in 2K or 4K (and with DPX, you better have a boatload of storage) and output files accordingly. Output to tape is HD 1080 4:4:4 via the Kona 3.

Ok... so...

1) Imported hi-res QTs and edit.
2) Export XML
3) Wiretap to Smoke
4) Wiretap reads XML, finds R3D files
5) Wiretap converts R3D -> DPX
6) Smoke imports XML and DPX

...and for this, you need a crapload of storage for the DPX files.

Versus...

1) Load R3D files into Premiere and Edit.
2) Export EDL
3) Load EDL to SCRATCH, and load R3D files.

One system, one set of files, no transcoding, no additional storage necessary.

Your workflow works. But, is it really a beautiful thing?

Hmmm, what else, what else... Man, there's a lot and for an x-Smoke guy (only because the price to upgrade from my old SD Smoke was very costly compared to going w/a DS Nitris), I'm very excited to having FCS, CS4 & Smoke on one box... Now that's power! And dropping a RED Rocket™™™ in there won't hurt either ;O)

Wouldn't hurt, except that neither FCS, CS4, or Smoke support RED Rocket™ yet.

I am not putting down Smoke as a tool. It's a great tool and has sold a bunch for a reason. I believe Autodesk will sell a lot of the 15K OSX version!

But I don't see the huge benefits in a RED workflow... and this is REDuser. : )

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
--------------
Director, Business Development
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Gunleik Groven]

1) Load R3D files into Premiere and Edit.
2) Export EDL
3) Load EDL to SCRATCH, and load R3D files.

One system, one set of files, no transcoding, no additional storage necessary.

Your workflow works. But, is it really a beautiful thing?

LA, CA, USA

I've been thinking a lot (for obvious reasons) about Smoke on Mac. And...

For about the same price, you can put together a system with the CS4 Production bundle and Rocket Fuel.

And then you have a 100% complete realtime native R3D system that does REALTIME full resolution, full debayer/demosaic for editorial, compositing, color, finish, and output.

But it's not on a Mac.

For me - this whole thing comes down to a very simple PC vs. Mac thing.

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
-------------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Nope. You're not delivering the full Scratch for 15k, are you? Rocketcine-x is still ScratchCine, + RR + nVidea + PC, isn't it?

So, if the spec's of ScratchCine haven't changed:
No compositing
No secondaries
No...

Basically a very good conform and one-light tool for playout to SR/DPX.
Wasn't that the intention?`

Let's say for a sec that Smoke is more compareable - featurewise - to Scratch (Not Scratch-Cine)
And that Autodesk has figured out the "+AJA for SDI output" for preview/playout.
And that a RR still gives you realtime DPX-export (and DPXs still has a bit going for them, even on a Scratch as far as I have been able to read/tell for anything but grading... There IS a reason that a kit'ed out Scratch base system always is ready to handle DPXs from the RAIDS you sell the customers, isn't it?)

Then...

It's not only a platform thing.

But I may be wrong.

On the other hand, I fear that the "RR update" for Smoke will be a separate module with its own price when/if it comes etc etc etc.


Cheers

G

 

[M Most]

But... Smoke's appeal in many ways is as a client-supervised system.

Will SmokeHD... without Batch... without LUTs... without GPU->SDI... will it be a valid client-supervised system?

This is not a rhetorical comment - I'm asking.

Yes.

The only real time playback limitation I saw (I saw the system demonstrated tonight) was that it won't do live downconversions (what they call real time mastering). And, predictably, the performance (both GUI interaction and any rendering) is a bit sluggish compared to the turnkey Linux boxes. But I did not really see a problem with playout (via the Kona 3) in the original format (in this case, 1080/23.98), much to my surprise. The lack of Batch limits a bit of the group copying functionality, and limits a bit of the compositing flexibility. But that, to me, is hardly a deal breaker, and it's likely to be something a client never notices. In fact, I was pretty impressed with what I saw, especially considering it's really a version 1 on this platform.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Basically a very good conform and one-light tool for playout to SR/DPX.
Wasn't that the intention?`
...
Then...

It's not only a platform thing.

Keep in mind, I was talking about Rocket Fuel + CS4.

SCRATCH CINE and Smoke are very different tools, and I wasn't comparing SCRATCH-CINE vs. Smoke on overall toolset.

Only on the window that SCRATCH-CINE is targeted at - R3D conversion, dailies correction, conform, video output, etc.

Lucas

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes.

Good feedback - thanks, Mike!

Lucas