CS4 4.2 is there.. But alas..

[Kujtim Ereqi]

Finally the long waited update is there: cs4 4.2.0.. Just downloading it.. A good thing..
But no support for new color science.. no Red rocket.. Very bad thing :emote_hanged:

What we - adobe red users - feared, was simply true.. No build 21 for us.

My only hope is that there will be a 4.2.x to address this issue. CS5 seems too far. If that's the case I'll be very very disappointed with Adobe. And I really don't get this issue: Premiere has been making wonderful steps toward the pro market. Many other programs users have admitted that they are almost ready to switch to Premiere if some issues are being dealt with. This will certainly make them forget Premiere for the moment. Red Community will be the best place for Adobe to get more ground from other pro applications.
Please, Adobe don't make that happen..

Just to be clear.. I will continue to work with Premiere. I will never "switch". But I don't think that will be the case of all of us..

 

[Stepan Kment]

Adobe?

Adobe?

I worry all this is crying on a wrong tomb :blush:

My understanding is RED uses Adobe's SDK and enhances Adobe's SW in custom ways. Adobe isn't responsible for adding RED's updated DLLs to the importer, actually, one can d/l the r3d import installer from RED, not Adobe. Unless Adobe finds the workflow so important that they add it as a base functionality like HDCAM i/o, you actually will depend on RED's coders.

And yes, color science is an important problem of Adobe's workflow these days. 4.5K a bit less, but missed, too.

 

[Kujtim Ereqi]

It would be a good thing if someone form RED could confirm (or deny) officially what Stepan says.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Just to be clear.. I will continue to work with Premiere. I will never "switch".

That is your prerogative, but I have been doing this way to long to dedicate myself for all time to any one workflow or any one application. RED is a perfect example of a product to hit the market and shake up they way we work, for the better. We all have our preferences, but flexibility is key to developing marketable skills.

I understand your frustrations about slow to adopt software, but in historical terms, Adobe is far from slow. If Color Science is that important, you have workflow options available to you now that you can leverage Color Science with, namely Redcine. I personally find the offline-proxy/online transcode workflow to be very flexible. There is always more than one way to do something, and often it's not the easiest way that gets the best results. Explore your options.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

There is seems to be some confusion on who we are waiting for...are we waiting on RED to write a new importer or Adobe? Who is it that has to support the new build 21 for Adobe? Is it Adobe that has to implement that change or RED?

From a previous post Deanan said the following...
"I would guess within a month but don't know for sure. I'd let Adobe know your interest also as feedback always helps. "
That tells us we are waiting on Adobe but then again...Adobe seems unaware RED implemented a new color science.... Deanan...any input on this?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think we're waiting on RED. I know that RED and Adobe are working together, but it's RED's software team that is producing the plugins for Adobe and FCS. We also know that RED's software team has had their hands full lately with the new REDCINE-X and RocketCine, probably other tools behind the RED Curtain to work with Epic/Scarlet.

I want an updated to the Adobe RED plugin as much as anyone else. But I would much prefer some serious bug fixes and issues being addressed in CS4 itself. Hopefully this update will fix a lot of the problems. ...Downloading now.

 

[Kujtim Ereqi]

Brandon, I really agree with you that it would be a great thing not to constrain yourself with one workflow, but not everybody is comfortable working with different applications, and switching between workflows. I have also edited several commercials in Final Cut, but in general I was not comfortable, though I know that both programs are very like each-other.

My frustration comes mostly from the fact that Adobe gave us a great plug-in to work with, so why not continue that way? I made that "non switch" statement, cause I did not the others to think that I don't like Adobe.

[..you have workflow options available to you now that you can leverage Color Science with, namely Redcine.]

Since I was waiting for the updates, I did not consider other workflows, but I will certainly do if I get assured that the new color science support will not come until CS5.

 

[Kujtim Ereqi]

Here is a link about 4.2 updates.

http://blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable/2009/11/premiere_pro_42_avc-intra.html#more

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

That's what I keep saying about Red's biggest drawback : they're focused on new developments, forgetting about the reality of editing 4K footage, especially on PC, despite of the usual "Your opinion matters, blah blah blah..."

They really should hire more software guys, and offer a real alternative to Mac.

No RedUndead for PC.
No QT Redcode for PC.
The Redcine-X seems cool though.

Offering a build 21 that you can't decode on PC is a non-sense. If they release the low-end Scarlet models this way, I predict a lot of troubles, especially in Europe where customers' rights are more important than in the US.

 

[david farland]

Deanan,
A lot of people now have a Red workflow integrated with Adobe Premiere/After effects and would (obviously) like the benefits of v20 integrated into their workflow.
Understand if the delivery date is out of your hands, but 'some' indication i.e. within 1/3/6 months would be a courtesy terribly appreciated.
I know what happened last Adobe release. Would it be more appropriate to ask Adobe?
Dave,

I would guess within a month but don't know for sure.
I'd let Adobe know your interest also as feedback always helps.

This was posted 11th Aug and says Red had their plugin ready and were waiting on Adobe to enable/integrate into CS4. The thing that pisses me is that they were allusive with the truth re: Red plugin integration was looking a no go. Always eager to blurt the happy sales enhancing news and reluctant to provide honest update on negative news, which is as important to us/our clients.
I guess the sad fact is if you're got a Red, then Apple is the way to go as they have been and probably will be faster out of the blocks on all things Red and with Epic/new redcode on the way, that's a definite factor to consider as Red/Adobe updates/quality/compatibity in the future will always be many months slower than others. Hell, Red have admitted they're a 'Apple' company.
D

 

[Brian Kaz]

This precisely why I dropped Premiere when Sony Vegas announced RED support. Within a few months, Vegas had already implemented color science & 4.5k.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That's what I keep saying about Red's biggest drawback : they're focused on new developments, forgetting about the reality of editing 4K footage, especially on PC, despite of the usual "Your opinion matters, blah blah blah..."

Of course, RED has released the SDK and it's free too. Why are all these companies not working on support themselves? Sony Creative has RED support in Vegas. There is support in Avid. I don't think the workflow situation is as grim as a lot of people make it out to be.

Build 21 is a beta release and not to be used for actual production, typical disclaimer. Not sure how anyone can fault them for not having support for a third party product to use with the current beta release.

They really should hire more software guys, and offer a real alternative to Mac.

I can work with R3Ds on Windows just fine..

No RedUndead for PC.

Yeah, we'll probably see it some day after it matures a bit. But honestly, I've only used it to play with it. I have never once actually had to use this. And if I did, I'm sure I can round up a Macbook or something to plug it into.

No QT Redcode for PC.

Better off this way, IMO. Proxies were OK in the beginning. But they aren't that special compared to direct NLE support now. And the performance pretty much sucks.

The Redcine-X seems cool though.

It is cool.

Offering a build 21 that you can't decode on PC is a non-sense.

It's beta. The limitations are a known quantity at this time.

If they release the low-end Scarlet models this way, I predict a lot of troubles

We'll see. I'm sure they will wrap up their current tools before shipping the cameras. As for support within third party software, that's still up in the air and always will be. RED can't write direct support for every NLE system out there.

especially in Europe where customers' rights are more important than in the US.

What makes you say this?

 

[Deanan]

This was posted 11th Aug and says Red had their plugin ready and were waiting on Adobe to enable/integrate into CS4. The thing that pisses me is that they were allusive with the truth re: Red plugin integration was looking a no go.

I gave you the best estimate at the time that it was asked for and I was pretty clear that it was a guess. Your statement is quite a bit presumptuous when you don't know anything about what's actually going on. When you're working with 3rd parties, many things are outside our control especially when they have their own internal deadlines they have to meet. Adobe has been very generous with development resources to enable better and better RED workflows and we appreciate all the effort they've put into it.

 

[Kaku Ito]

This was posted 11th Aug and says Red had their plugin ready and were waiting on Adobe to enable/integrate into CS4. The thing that pisses me is that they were allusive with the truth re: Red plugin integration was looking a no go. Always eager to blurt the happy sales enhancing news and reluctant to provide honest update on negative news, which is as important to us/our clients.
I guess the sad fact is if you're got a Red, then Apple is the way to go as they have been and probably will be faster out of the blocks on all things Red and with Epic/new redcode on the way, that's a definite factor to consider as Red/Adobe updates/quality/compatibity in the future will always be many months slower than others. Hell, Red have admitted they're a 'Apple' company.
D

RED maybe biased to Apple but Assimilate is for PC. After all of time and effort I spent with Mac and Adobe, I'm entering Scratch for more complete and native editing environment. Apple officially don't have that.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

RED maybe biased to Apple but Assimilate is for PC. After all of time and effort I spent with Mac and Adobe, I'm entering Scratch for more complete and native editing environment. Apple officially don't have that.

Kaku makes a great point here, so I think the agreement is we all have tools that are less than perfect, Scratch is rather expensive for instance, but they can all get the job done with some sacrifice.

Assimilate gave us Redcine, which is free and really is a workhorse in my facility. It makes my less than perfect NLE a full compliment to the Red One.

There is always going to be another "Color Science" around the bend and our tools will always be behind the curve of innovation, otherwise we would all be programmers and engineers. Companies need our feedback, it's true. There is a lot to be said for both feedback and workflow innovation on the part of the end user.

 

[david farland]

I gave you the best estimate at the time that it was asked for and I was pretty clear that it was a guess. Your statement is quite a bit presumptuous when you don't know anything about what's actually going on. When you're working with 3rd parties, many things are outside our control especially when they have their own internal deadlines they have to meet. Adobe has been very generous with development resources to enable better and better RED workflows and we appreciate all the effort they've put into it.

Deanan,
I should have been more clear. I'm a little annoyed at Adobe....not Red.
I appreciated your openness/communication in Aug and always assumed Red had either done their activities or were not causing any delay on the s/w delivery's critical path.
I was expecting a communication from Adobe to set client expectations on integration of new Red code into CS4 suite. This never came and neither did the integration into CS4.2, hence the rave.
Dave

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

RED has added a lot of ability to the SDK since the last release of the Adobe plug-in. I'm hoping that the next update will bring us support for not only the new "color science" and B21 4.5K, but the RED Rocket as well and hopefully in AE!

As Deanan points out there are a lot of factors we do not know. We don't even know how much of this Adobe plug-in is being created by the software developers at RED or the developers within Adobe. Both companies have other deadlines and projects to focus on in addition to just this.

There are plenty of options for working on a PC with R3D files. I understand people have their favorite workflows or tools to use, but it's difficult these days to restrict oneself to specific tools. Doesn't matter if we're talking RED post, HDCAM or DPX scanned from 35mm.

There's SCRATCH, NUKE, Avid, Vegas, REDCINE, REDCINE-X, Quantel, SpeedGrade and more supporting RED on the PC in addition to Adobe tools.

 

[david farland]

As Deanan points out there are a lot of factors we do not know.
We don't even know how much of this Adobe plug-in is being created by the software developers at RED or the developers within Adobe.
Both companies have other deadlines and projects to focus on in addition to just this.

I figured Red had their backsides covered and Adobe either got swamped with finite resources or had conflicting priorities.
Either way the expectation was set. There was zilch communication for 3 months until we saw it wasn't there.

We still don't know when it will arrive!
Geeez...Dave

 

[Kujtim Ereqi]

We still don't know when it will arrive!
Geeez...Dave

This is the worst part, IMO, not the delay itself. If we know when, we can use temporary alternatives until the solution comes..

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

I can work with R3Ds on Windows just fine..?

Sure, you can. It depends what you want to do. I just think that more attention should be paid to the software side of the Red workflow. If you have a lot of money, you go for Scratch on the PC side and everything's fine. But if you have a lot of money, you can also go for 35mm :smile5:

What makes you say this?

I often discuss with Americans and it's quite difficult to understand for them the power of a" state" structure, especially in the case of Europe where everything is complicate.

I'm not an legal expert, the following examples are just there to give you an idea.

For instance : As for now, you're obliged to buy the Red cameras from the US. So it's considered as an import from the European point of views. Hence the Tax problems, but Red isn't obliged to follow some rules it will have to follow if they're selling cameras from within Europe.

For example :
- they would have to offer a user's manual in the language of the country whree you buy it.
- there's a warranty thing : for some electronics, it must be 2 years at least, and a precise list of prices for repair.
-if you record the QT proxies while you're shooting, you must be able to watch them on several platforms. Being obliged to buy a Mac to watch the QT proxies could be seen as a forced sale. Microsoft and Apple have been suited for this (the Internet Explorer story, and the iTunes one).
- there are plenty of other obligations, I don't know them all (especially the security things)

Of course I don't want to threaten anyone, I'm just saying that Red is entering a whole new world with lowering their prices with Scarlet. Again, the Red camera is great, ther's nothing's close to its quality yet and I'm sure Jim Jannard is aware of all these troubles.

Despite my anger which could make you think I'm a Red ennemy, I was one of the first to believe in this fantastic project, and problably the first to try to do a feature with it in France.