Hannover Hands On comparisons of RED F35 & D21

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I will call out anything that I feel is a discrepancy when I see it, regardless of who benefits from it. There has been a tide of FUD against Red since its birth and if I detect any unfairness in testing I must speak up, as you can imagine.

As for my technical background, it is much deeper than it appears or than I can reveal, (much to my frustration).

What unfairness? Would you mind to elaborate since your technical skills are so much more than you can reveal?

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Then if that's what you think, you should conduct such a test. Good luck. I'd be interested in seeing the results.

I seriously doubt I could convince anyone on Red User of such a test's relevance. I take your "good luck" in the spirit it is given.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

What unfairness? Would you mind to elaborate since your technical skills are so much more then you can reveal?

When I detect some I will let you know. I wasn't referring to anything specific.

As for my technical skills... what technical skills? I don't know what you're talking about, you must have the wrong guy.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Thanks for coming back, Geoff.

For some of the posters, particularly on this thread, I would advise watching the following "How to behave on an internet forum" (and it's fun, too; replace "games console" with "digital cinema camera"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIyr5TXqe8Y

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

What else did I do wrong?

Yet we have people tearing me apart because, although they admit that they have never used the other cameras, they "know" ie they read the manual, that the F35 can be adjusted. Yes it can, it has 2 modes of operation, a technical one where everything can be adjusted and a cine one where there are no adjustments. Oh and if you had got a D21 manual you'd have seen that there are almost no adjustments there either. Of course reading the manual is exactly the same as practical experience with the kit.

Hi Geoff,

as you always wanted to play fair and also mostly as a sort of "professional" but at the end of the game here at this tread you turned to play as a sort of "elderly kid".

Why?

I can't say more about it.

First I would like to discuss, not to insult and if you prefer to make jokes then you will get "my joke back" later in this respond.

Go back to the technical or "subjective" how you want to describe your test methodology:

Ohh, but nothing is subjective in your test method because it shows only (a dull) comparison between

already "baked" (a sort of Cine) Log curves from Sony F35 and Arri D21 versus "unbaked" RED1 image that you fixed it at 5000K/320 ISO.

Then you presented some pictures online (DPX) how you've been playing with the lens aperture using a couple of stops up and down.

And then you "strongly" considered this "thing" as a test.

Test of what?

Could be a sort of "test thing" but to repeat again it was ONLY the test that showed F35 & D21 Cine Log curves vs. RED1 @ 5000K/320 with no any (Cine) Log curve applied at all.

The test also showed what you prefer and like BUT then because of that you've got "criticized even attacked" here. :laugh: :ihih:

That's all and not more...

Also this sort of tests are mostly not valid and as you would like to say there are more "subjective" sort of...doing things...

Anyway RED1 performed quite well in all those tests.

At the end they are already OBSOLETE just because tomorrow RED will announce a brand new M-X sensor...stay tuned...

And also one more thing:

Geoff Boyle with his "newest girlfriend" Sony F35.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Thanks for sharing your test, Geoff. Greatly appreciated.

 

[geoffboyle]

Could be a sort of "test thing" but to repeat again it was ONLY the test that showed F35 & D21 Cine Log curves vs. RED1 @ 5000K/320 with no any (Cine) Log curve applied at all.

I really think that you see what you want to see and not what actually is.

I have always said that the RED files were output in Redlog where do you get no curve applied from?

The answer to that is simple, there are none so blind as those who won't see.

As for the tests being useless, well I don't know what you shoot but the eight of us who shot the tests and who earn our livings from making pictures in high end situations learned a lot from them.

The picture of me with an F35? I shot some tests for Cooke/Pixel Farm.

In reality the cameras that I have used to earn money with in the last couple years or so are:-

RED 1 film, 2 TV films
SI 2 films
Viper 1 film
Phantom HD 1 film
Arricam LT 1 film
Arri 435 1 film
Arri 235 1 film
F23 1 commercial
F900R 2 commercials
Panasonic Varicam 1 commercial

As someone so biased against the RED which camera have I actually used the most to earn my living!

 

[PaulClements]

In reality the cameras that I have used to earn money with in the last couple years or so are:-

RED 1 film, 2 TV films
SI 2 films
Viper 1 film
Phantom HD 1 film
Arricam LT 1 film
Arri 435 1 film
Arri 235 1 film
F23 1 commercial
F900R 2 commercials
Panasonic Varicam 1 commercial

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for posting the tests.

Out of interest which cameras did you use to shoot 3D features with and how did they compare? I seem to recall you shot SI2K and Reds stereoscopically. What unexpected hurdles did you encouter and what rigs did you use?

Thanks
Paul

 

[Stephen Webb]

For some of the posters, particularly on this thread, I would advise watching the following "How to behave on an internet forum" (and its fun, too; replace "games console" with "digital cinema camera"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIyr5TXqe8Y

I second that. Good video :lol:

 

[geoffboyle]

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for posting the tests.

Out of interest which cameras did you use to shoot 3D features with and how did they compare? I seem to recall you shot SI2K and Reds stereoscopically. What unexpected hurdles did you encouter and what rigs did you use?

Thanks
Paul

We used one RED rig which was the old Paradise FX ones, I don't mean that negatively, it was a rig that they had used for a while and that was well proven.
The RED's had Optimo 15-40's on them.

This rig was used mainly in the studio foe all the green screen work but we also used it a few times on location.

We had 2 SI rigs, one built by Element Technica and designed, at my request, to fit inside the MK-V AR rig

The other SI rig was a parallel one that Howard knocked up

Nothing really unexpected, we had a problem with bent pins on a CF writer :-( oh and we had to drop back a software revision.

We had weird static problems with the SI's at very low temperatures.

But really everything went pretty well technically.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Geoff,

at first I'm here to learn using RED1.

Also "fortunately" or "unfortunately" do not have any existential pressure to "work" as a "cinematographer" to earn for my living.

My only intention is to know to use a tool like a RED1 for eventually art project that can be called a movie, performance, happening or whatever as an artist like me conceptually think about....

This makes me "free" to think out of that sort DP professional "destiny"... and have a freedom to show here my quick and dirty tests with RED1 from time to time.

In between I'm used to rent my RED1...and always like to know more about that cam I can certainly afford...

Cheers... :cheers2:

 

[Stephen Webb]

I got to have a good look at the Red and SI rigs a few months back whilst they were being prepped down at Take2 (unless someone else had the exact same setups on the go...) I don't envy you that Red set-up, looked a bit awkward!

 

[geoffboyle]

I got to have a good look at the Red and SI rigs a few months back whilst they were being prepped down at Take2 (unless someone else had the exact same setups on the go...) I don't envy you that Red set-up, looked a bit awkward!

I'm pretty sure that you saw the same rigs, maybe the SI one was an update.

The RED rig was a monster! 105 Lbs

ET have a really nice RED rig now, much smaller and lighter.

Good control system as well.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

This was posted in another thread but I thought it had a place here:

Lots of things about work are hard. Dealing with trolls is one of them. Trolls are critics who gain perverse pleasure in relentlessly tearing you and your ideas down. Here's the thing(s):
1. trolls will always be trolling
2. critics rarely create
3. they live in a tiny echo chamber, ignored by everyone except the trolled and the other trolls
4. professionals (that's you) get paid to ignore them. It's part of your job.
"Can't please everyone," isn't just an aphorism, it's the secret of being remarkable.

 

[Robert Frank]

:beatdeadhorse5:

Could the moderators just delete this whole thread except for the first post?

This way it would actually be useful!

Seriously!

Geoff, good to see you here again.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

Indeed, I would hate to see you driven away. Thanks for sharing your work.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Indeed, I would hate to see you driven away. Thanks for sharing your work.

Driven away? Surely Geoff Boyle is a hell of a lot braver than you guys give him credit for. No one's driven anyone away.

 

[James T Mather]

Hi Geoff,

as you always wanted to play fair and also mostly as a sort of "professional" but at the end of the game here at this tread you turned to play as a sort of "elderly kid".

Why?

I can't say more about it.

First I would like to discuss, not to insult and if you prefer to make jokes then you will get "my joke back" later in this respond.

Go back to the technical or "subjective" how you want to describe your test methodology:

Ohh, but nothing is subjective in your test method because it shows only (a dull) comparison between

already "baked" (a sort of Cine) Log curves from Sony F35 and Arri D21 versus "unbaked" RED1 image that you fixed it at 5000K/320 ISO.

Then you presented some pictures online (DPX) how you've been playing with the lens aperture using a couple of stops up and down.

And then you "strongly" considered this "thing" as a test.

Test of what?

Could be a sort of "test thing" but to repeat again it was ONLY the test that showed F35 & D21 Cine Log curves vs. RED1 @ 5000K/320 with no any (Cine) Log curve applied at all.

The test also showed what you prefer and like BUT then because of that you've got "criticized even attacked" here. :laugh: :ihih:

That's all and not more...

Also this sort of tests are mostly not valid and as you would like to say there are more "subjective" sort of...doing things...

Anyway RED1 performed quite well in all those tests.

At the end they are already OBSOLETE just because tomorrow RED will announce a brand new M-X sensor...stay tuned...

And also one more thing:

Geoff Boyle with his "newest girlfriend" Sony F35.

wow Sanjin - Perhaps it's your babel fish translator but I think you should learn some manners. Your posts sound incredibly arrogant and rude to me. Politeness and professionalism cost nothing and you seem to have neither of these qualities. Maybe be a little more considerate in your posts to other people.

 

[Martin Weiss]

And while we're at it: putting words into quotes suggests that you don't really mean it. I.e. when you call someone a professional, you say that they know their trade. But if you call someone a "professional" you really say that they aren't.

And I am not sure why Sanjin posted that picture of Geoff holding a F35 and called it his "newest girlfriend". Calling a camera a DPs girl-friend is as best immature. And the picture itself to me it only shows that Geoff is a DP that works with different camera systems (as any DP should that can make camera decisions), that Sanjin knows how to google, and that Geoff has lost quite some weight since I've last met him. Only one of which is news, and of no relevance to this thread.

 

[John "Woody" Glaser]

Geoff,
I want to thank you for your tests and appreciate your vast body of work and taking the time to share . I also think some folks need to learn protocol and manners.
Best Regards Sir,
Woody