Hannover Hands On comparisons of RED F35 & D21

[Steve Sherrick]

Wow, the temperature in this room got really cold. It's unfortunate. This should not be an Us vs. Them kind of thing. I live every day to learn. I make mistakes everyday, sometimes I help other avoid mistakes. It's a give and take. I don't know Geoff, but I do know that he and other cinematographers have been around a while, and usually there's a lot to learn from, but like all of us, they'll make their share of mistakes. But rather than conspiracy theories or personal attacks, better to have a discussion and rely on facts and examples to counter any test or point if you don't agree with them.

I've been working with a talented gaffer recently who's been around for a while lighting for film and video. He's still trying to get his head around RED. We're going to setup some tests so he can clearly see how the RED RAW image system works. I expect we'll both learn something in the process. He's got tons of lighting experience I can learn from and hopefully I've got enough experience exposing RED images to help him understand how to get the best out of it.

The point is, I can't see the benefit of trashing anyone on these boards, unless there is very clear intent on their part to cause damage to the community. I don't think Geoff is doing that. I'd love to see this thread go in a positive direction, with some well thought out counter points, perhaps some updated images from Geoff, and a nice civil discourse. I think we'll all learn something through the process. Let's try to remember the respect factor.

 

[M Most]

Completely accurate. If anyone argued that REDuser was not biased towards one camera (RED) they need a reality check....It is adjacent to comparing someone walking into a BestBuy that sells multiple brands of computers and saying "Apple sucks" vs. someone walking into the Apple store and saying "Apple sucks". Excuse the pun, but it is not an apples to apples comparison. You are going to usually get a much more emotionally heated response peppered with pack mentality at the apple store 9 times out of 10.

I don't disagree at all. Except that in this case, Geoff didn't come in here to say "Red sucks." He's used the camera - by his own choice - on a number of projects that we both know about, and continues to do so. Not to mention that he is a person of at least some stature in the industry who deserves at least a modicum of respect. Both you and Jim immediately offered that, and correctly and fairly assumed that a mistake was made that you offered to help rectify. Unlike some others here, you didn't immediately start implying that he was "ignorant," or inexperienced, or incompetent, or an enemy, as others here did. There's bias (understandable and completely expected and acceptable) and there's pure lack of respect and lack of common courtesy, which was exhibited by a number of people here (not yourself, and not Jim).

 

[Graeme Nattress]

How come it takes until there's a thread about these tests on REDuser before it is noticed that the dpx files put up for our enjoyment are 10bit for the Arri and F35, but only 8bit for the RED, and the red and blue channels are transposed? These tests were announced on CML when - just over a week ago? I couldn't look at them last week as I was travelling. I did try to view a dpx, but as Photoshop wouldn't open it and that's all I had on my laptop I just ignored the test.

Now I read the thread here and start digging. I download more dpx's this time. Some open, some don't. I try to find apps that open the RED ones because for some reason those are the ones I'm mostly interested in. And the colors are wrong. Then I notice the files are much smaller than the others. Then I get an app that shows the metadata about the files and it confirms that they're 8bit.

All I can say is that I'm completely assuming that there's been an error in processing the dpx files. I have no idea how that happened. I'm assuming that there's some app being used that writes 8bit dpx files rather than 10bit dpx files and either transposes the order, or writes the order in reverse and that such metadata to indicate that is lost on the vast majority of dpx reading apps out there.

Graeme

 

[Jarred Land]

I don't disagree at all. Except that in this case, Geoff didn't come in here to say "Red sucks." He's used the camera - by his own choice - on a number of projects that we both know about, and continues to do so. Not to mention that he is a person of at least some stature in the industry who deserves at least a modicum of respect. Both you and Jim immediately offered that, and correctly and fairly assumed that a mistake was made that you offered to help rectify. Unlike some others here, you didn't immediately start implying that he was "ignorant," or inexperienced, or incompetent, or an enemy, as others here did. There's bias (understandable and completely expected and acceptable) and there's pure lack of respect and lack of common courtesy, which was exhibited by a number of people here (not yourself, and not Jim).

Hey Mike, I agree the personal attacks are immature and don't add value to this or any discussion.

We are pretty liberal at REDuser and we don't control opinions or how they are communicated here (not saying that others forums do) for the most part because I have had the experience of talking to many of the people here and elsewhere in the real world, and in the real world the personal attacks, acts of ignorance and blatant disregard for the emotions of others can be way, way worse... especially in this industry full of passionate artists.

The only difference is that those real world somewhat slanderous discussions are usually discussed in a small private conversation rather than a much broader, open, public audience like here. I don't think some people understand the difference.

Some of us are guilty of packaging posts sometimes in an abrasive, immature and purely emotional manner, I sure am guilty of that myself, and I hope you agree that even some of your posts can come across a little abrassive as well.

I know "keeping it real" creates a ton of noise. That noise is one thing that is hard to control without removing soul. Lots of Drama. If you have any ideas on solving that, I am all ears.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

yawn... boot. open browser. go to reduser. no recon updates. wait, ah. a Hanover test, Cool. Read. Gulp. Read More. Gulp Gulp. ahh, there's mike most. and Graeme's chiming in... cool.

uh oh, now someone ticked David Mullen off.

OK, Im not posting here to save my life... I wonder whats for sale today on reduser classifieds?

 

[Grady Wilson]

The tests now about bravery?

How about tests that are done reasonably well and don't mislead.

If Geoff's going to complain about the BSC tests, the least he could do is not make similar mistakes.

This is such a short little post but sums up this entire lengthy argument quite well.

 

[Robert Frank]

yawn... boot. open browser. go to reduser. no recon updates. wait, ah. a Hanover test, Cool. Read. Gulp. Read More. Gulp Gulp. ahh, there's mike most. and Graeme's chiming in... cool.

uh oh, now someone ticked David Mullen off.

OK, Im not posting here to save my life... I wonder whats for sale today on reduser classifieds?

Thanks Tim for helping to add some levity to the thread! ::biggrin5:

Keep a professional mindset and be respectful folks. :wink:

 

[Peter Rollins]

How come it takes until there's a thread about these tests on REDuser before it is noticed that the dpx files put up for our enjoyment are 10bit for the Arri and F35, but only 8bit for the RED, and the red and blue channels are transposed? These tests were announced on CML when - just over a week ago?

The "teachers" that we all look up to just got schooled by the reject punk rockers smoking in the back of the school :smiley:

Amusing the comments about everyone on REDuser being brainwashed.

All those CML members that looked and made comments of those results should now just admit they are all brainwashed, that would be much better than admitting that they have no idea what the they are doing. :idea:

 

[Jarred Land]

Peter... no more negative generalizations about CML please. Your comments are more damaging to your character than they are to anyone you are directing them towards.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Here below is an example how it should be done a proper test with RED ONE camera by any "professional".

The first you shoot with RED1 that has to be set up for a time-lapse shots with duration of one second

bacause to have a small R3D file to publish and later share with others who would like to process it by themselves.

Simply showing of JEPGs or even DPX Log don't work because R3D RAW files files were already have been processed.

You always have to give the original R3D file as your test reference file and no any other.

By the help of RED Team test instructions I did a pilot (test) for RED B20 and here we go:

Lens: Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 @ f/1.4 (wide open),

Tungsen light: (a big bulb E27 75W 220V) coming from a left side at approximately the same distance between object and camera.

Color light meter: Gossen Colormaster 3F

Color Charts: Color checker by GretaMacBeth, Gamma-3cP Chart by Gamma & Density Co, Grey Card by FotoWand (Neutral Grey DN=0.75 log D, 17.68 % Reflection).

The original R3D file is opened in REDAlert set to Camera RGB and RED Log still with no any other adjustment applied.

- camera's AUTO white balance = 2605K

- white balance tool in RED Alert = 2498K

- light color meter = 2450K

Then you can offer original R3D file for a quick download that community can have a look properly at the shot and see what happened there during the test.

The original R3D file to download:

A003_C001_06053N_001.R3D >>>Right-click on the "Save As..."

The R3D file size is just about 934K.


----------------------


Hope this helps.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I took this from the shots in the "low light test" - one is the Arri, the other the RED - "we stopped at minus two with the RED as it wasn't worth going any further."

Sure, one of the two shots is getting quite noisy, and perhaps makes for a good stopping point. But the other is much cleaner. Even with the 8bit disadvantage from the dpx, the RED is the cleaner, less noisy image here. I don't get it....

But because the test was stopped early on the RED we'll never know...

Graeme

 

[Jannard]

After a rough personal start with Geoff, we have found middle ground (I actually like him)... and I see no reason to question his motives here.

I do certainly take exception to the fact that these tests don't seem to have been done with much care. 8 bit vs. 10 bit and transposed colors seems like a rather large error in processing. Because Geoff DOES have credibility and IS unbiased, this is a rather serious situation if people make a judgment of RED while thinking these tests make RED look extraordinarily bad relative to competitive cameras. I also agree that this is not just about DR. The RED footage in these tests would certainly make me wary of ever choosing RED... which is not a correct conclusion to draw.

This points to the importance of doing tests properly, and in a repeatable manner, so people can come to a reasonable and fair conclusion. Graeme's post above indicated that while the testing seems "off"... so do the conclusions. I am quite sure that Geoff will want to clarify the situation. His reputation is without question and I'm sure he will post something to make sense of this all.

PLEASE refrain from name calling and disrespectful posts. I don't want Geoff to be treated here as I have been on "other" boards.

Jim

 

[M Most]

Some of us are guilty of packaging posts sometimes in an abrasive, immature and purely emotional manner, I sure am guilty of that myself, and I hope you agree that even some of your posts can come across a little abrassive as well.

Absolutely, I most certainly do admit that. But at the same time, I do think I generally refrain from insulting anyone in a personal way, and I generally refrain from name calling, as do you and Jim. At least I try to.

I know "keeping it real" creates a ton of noise. That noise is one thing that is hard to control without removing soul. Lots of Drama. If you have any ideas on solving that, I am all ears.

Unfortunately, I don't. We live in a very uncivil age and a very, very polarized society in which there doesn't seem to be any middle ground on just about anything anymore. Everything either "rules" or "sucks." It's either complete trash or a "game changer." There's no such thing as something that's simply good. And that in itself often tends to reduce the signal to noise ratio significantly. Unfortunate, but true.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

And although it seems like common sense and an obvious thing to state, doing your own tests will often times be the best approach, especially if you are working with people who know what they are doing. Not to say that third party testing doesn't have its place too, but nothing like being there for the tests, seeing exactly how they are performed, and coming away with a better understanding of how two camera systems compare under similar circumstances. Of course, not everyone has time or patience to test, and some will want to rely on the results of others, and that's fine. For me, I want to be hands-on, in real world situations just like I would be when using the cameras.

Having said that, I still find the tests interesting and I do hope Geoff figures out what happened and continues the discussion.

 

[Robert Frank]

...I still find the tests interesting and I do hope Geoff figures out what happened and continues the discussion.

I totally agree! I hope Geoff takes the time to sort this test out.
osti:

 

[Robert Frank]

This points to the importance of doing tests properly, and in a repeatable manner, so people can come to a reasonable and fair conclusion. Graeme's post above indicated that while the testing seems "off"... so do the conclusions. I am quite sure that Geoff will want to clarify the situation. His reputation is without question and I'm sure he will post something to make sense of this all.

PLEASE refrain from name calling and disrespectful posts. I don't want Geoff to be treated here as I have been on "other" boards.

Jim

Exactly! Thanks for your input Jim!

 

[Todd M.]

....the red and blue channels are transposed?

Graeme

I can't understand why no one caught this. I mean when you are looking at the same image three times and on one of them reds (like taillights) are blue and blues are red, do you not say to yourself "hmmm, something doesn't seem right here."

I think it would help a great deal if the authors could give us some update as to how something like this could happen. RED footage is really easy to process.

 

[M Most]

After a rough personal start with Geoff, we have found middle ground (I actually like him)... and I see no reason to question his motives here. ...this points to the importance of doing tests properly, and in a repeatable manner, so people can come to a reasonable and fair conclusion. Graeme's post above indicated that while the testing seems "off"... so do the conclusions. I am quite sure that Geoff will want to clarify the situation. His reputation is without question and I'm sure he will post something to make sense of this all.

PLEASE refrain from name calling and disrespectful posts. I don't want Geoff to be treated here as I have been on "other" boards.

Thank you for reintroducing some civility to this thread. For anyone who doesn't know Geoff as you and I do, I would add that it's very likely that nobody is kicking themselves harder than he is for posting images that do, obviously, have processing errors. My guess is that in his effort to even the playing field by using the one application I know of that can directly handle all of the formats he was testing (Iridas' Speedgrade), something went awry. My further guess is that he's already taking this up with the folks at Iridas to figure out what went wrong and correct it.

Most of the people here (not you) are also likely unaware that Geoff is one of the most technically fearless and adventurous "traditional" cinematographers in the world. On the first feature he ever shot, he used the Viper for the first unit, and a largely untested and untried Silicon Imaging Mini camera to shoot all of the miniature work because he loved the possibilities its small size and RAW capture brought to the table. On the first 3D feature he shot, he used both SI and Red equipped rigs because the SI allowed for a very small, very light rig that was invaluable for certain shots, and the Red allowed more controllable depth of field and great quality for others. He took over a television series and shot it on Red because he wanted what Red could bring in terms of better quality, no grain issues, and portability. Hell, I even participated in some tests with him at Dalsa's facility a few years ago. In short, one would be hard pressed to find a cinematographer of any age or experience level who embraces all formats and technologies to the extent that Geoff does.

 

[Jannard]

I have deleted a few of the most disrespectful posts on this thread and will continue to do so if it continues. Please make your posts without attacking anyone's character.

Jim

 

[Joe G.]

I have no stake in any of this. But, let me say something reasonable about it.

Geoff's error may have already caused some real-world damage to Red's reputation across the world with people who saw the first results and will not see any corrections.

Given that, I think Geoff should do several things to make amends:

1) Reprocess the files according to the best possible settings, possibly using some other software (Redalert)???

2) Offer the original R3D files to the Red team so that they can also reprocess the files, and compare against the future results.

3) Offer a correction to the original article, that most who read the original are likely to see.

The name-calling is ugly.