Color renders soft 2K files

[Timo Teravainen]

I have done some comparisons between renders from different applications, using a 4K 2:1 R3D file, or in Final Cut/Color environment it's made into a quicktime REDCODE wrapper. Final output format is 2K 2048x1024. It looks like the renders from Color are consistently a bit more soft than from RED Alert/Final Cut.

I find it a bit strange that the transcoded Prores 422 files, transcoded in Log & transfer for offline edit, are sharper and crisper than Color-renders from the online-quality REDCODE file.

This happens only when sending a R3D/REDCODE file into Color, with files transcoded to Prores Color renders them out as sharp as they came in.

Does anyone know what this is about? Does it have something to do with Color's internal debayering algorithms?

Regards,
Timo

 

[Kaku Ito]

Timo,

Color doesn't go through the OLPF algorithm which makes the output not as sharp as REDLINE rendering with OLPF sharpening on.

Also, I don't use the QT wrapper at all so not sure, but it seems wrapping at 2k rather than 4k, so comparing to the proxies referring to original 4K R3D (if you shot 4K), it is softer. Is this true Deanan?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is with 1.5?

(About to start tests with Snow Leopard and Color...)

 

[Kaku Ito]

Since FCP only handles up to 2K, I was feeling this is the case even with FCS3.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Color 1.5 is supposedly handling 4k...

 

[Kaku Ito]

Color 1.5 is supposedly handling 4k...

Yes Color 1.5 does, but thinking when FCP wraps R3D in L&T, it's wrapping at 2K resolution, that is why wrapped R3D becomes softer than other method. This is what I'm guessing so I want others' words.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yup, this is one of the things I'll be testing.
Also I am curious if the RED-ROOM now properly locks the developed image into RGB, or if you still "correct" with the metadata - and still re-develop noise in the primary, secondary, FX room and primary out...

If that's the case, DPX is still king... (and I suspect it still is like that, but haven't tested yet...)

 

[Kaku Ito]

Gunleik,

To process 4k to 2k or HD as output, I totally dig Graeme's special algorithm and process in REDLINE with OLPF sharpening on, wether DPX or QT444 uncompressed, or even ProRes4444. To me, edit offline on FCP with proxies, save XML, use Clipfinder to locate the R3D that I used in the edit, move that to another location so I can read them with Rocketcine-x for baselight, then output the whole clips or use Monkey Extract to render only the in/out content. After that, send to Color .

 

[Timo Teravainen]

Gunleik: yes, this is with 1.5/Snow Leopard.

"but thinking when FCP wraps R3D in L&T, it's wrapping at 2K resolution, that is why wrapped R3D becomes softer than other method."

I don't think this is quite so, especially with FCS3. I've done some tests with reframing 4K shots, zooming in 200% or more, and I get as good quality as from RedCine. So I think L&T wraps the 4K file, and Color uses it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you Kaku for the information that Color doesn't use the same sharpening algorithm as Redline. Do you know if Color uses any sharpening at all?

In your workflow, do you mean that you render first into DPX or 4444 and only after that you go to Color? Is there any way to get as sharp shots from Color when using proxies/QT wrapper, as from programs using Redline?

Also, I find it strange that L&T encodes sharp and crisp 2K prores files, so why doesn't Color use the same algorithm for output as L&T?

Regards,
Timo

 

[Uli Plank]

Get Graeme's plug-ins for Color…

 

[David Battistella]

Just want to add something here. Color only uses the GPU to render so I am wondering if pushing the renders through the display card will ultimately affect the image quality.

The other thing that I always do is add a sharpening node in the Color FX room or to the output so that all of the shots have a bit of sharpening to them.

This is with 1.5 on Snow Leopard.

I have also had a terrible problem of Garbage renders when rendering out to 4444 directly from relinked r3d xmls created with clipfinder. The files relink perfectly. The images are sharp and clear, then renders on screen look fantastic and then all I get in the rendered file is pink and green mess.

I have reinstalled the entire suite and removed all non essential QT codecs looking for conflicts, changed destination media directories and still can't solve this problem.

The solution has been to render out 10-bit uncompressed from Clipfinder, relink in FCP, send to color and correct the uncompressed media, but that eliminates all the functionality of the RED tab in Color.

Very buggy for me at this early stage.

David

 

[Uli Plank]

For sharpening get Graeme Nattress' plug-in set for Color.

 

[Timo Teravainen]

Uli,

We have the Nattress plugin collection. Are you refering to G-Sharpen node?

Thanks,
Timo

 

[Kaku Ito]

Timo,

Thanks for sharing your thought about the wrapped QT resolution. Few things happened to me with wrappted QT when I had to show something to people (I never use L&T at all unless show how it works to people) that made me suspect that wrapped QT could have been 2k.

The information about OLPF sharpening comes from Graeme. He explained us that 4K to 2k or HD resizing at 1/2 high in REDLINE provides special processing that Graeme came out with. So if the project is 2K or HD, I do this first in Monkey Extract (which uses REDLINE) to output DPX or QT444, then send the conformed XML that Monkey Extract creates to grade in Color. So, I never bother to try to mimic that in Color 1.5 at this point. Hoping Apple will adopt all of the features of REDLINE at last, so I'll just wait for that.

Uli, right good idea!

 

[Kaku Ito]

David,

Thank you for you information about the Color.