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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red-RAM for Epic-X: The conundrum.

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Ryan S

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Like many of you, I'm anxiously awaiting the opportunity to say YES to the Epic-X trade-in program. 5K I can take or leave for now, until I know it'll play nicely with Final Cut and Color. 4K at 125fps? Now that's got me goosebumpy. And when 5K DOES play nicely with the above apps, then I'll want to make use of 100fps 5K as well.

The thing that has been bothering me is recording media. The Epic/Scarlet page on Red.com makes mention of high speed CF and SSD modules, but that's all I've heard (read) so far.

I've been tempted recently to invest in a Red RAM or two. The thing is- I don't want to drop that kind of money on the Red RAM unless I can use it with the Epic-X for those higher frame rates. If the RAM is only going to get me 4K/5K at 30fps, then I won't bother, I'll wait to see what the new line of media for the DSMC brings.

So, I pose this question to the SSD-savvy Redusers (or anyone from Red who feels like sharing...) what's the likelihood that the Red RAM could take 4K @ 125fps? Even 72-96 would be nice. And what about 5K?

If this has been discussed in another thread already, please point me in the right direction. My search didn't yield anything.

Cheers!
 
Personally, and RED wouldn't want to hear this, I would be careful about spending any big bucks until we hear more from RED on what will be upgraded, compatible, etc. Hopefully we'll hear more info soon.

I know some things are "compatible," but that doesn't mean I want them. For instance, I don't want RED Brick batteries that get one hour if I can get the handle/new battery setup that will get 4 hours. So...no buying batts right now for us.
 
Why not just shoot at 4k with more frames and better DR and less noise until they get the post sorted? What are you going to do with 5k anyway? Wait for 5k projectors?
 
Ben I think you have completely misread Ryan's post.
 
Häakon said:
Oversampling...
Click to expand...

Exactly. 5K makes a TRUE 4K when it is debayered and scaled.

If you consider that 4K after it is debayered ends up being closer about 3.2K.

4K divided by 3.2K = 1.25 ratio

What resolution do we need to start with in order to end up with 4K using the same ratio?

1.25 times 4K = 5K

At least that is how I look at it.
 
Kevin Wild said:
Personally, and RED wouldn't want to hear this, I would be careful about spending any big bucks until we hear more from RED on what will be upgraded, compatible, etc. Hopefully we'll hear more info soon.

I know some things are "compatible," but that doesn't mean I want them. For instance, I don't want RED Brick batteries that get one hour if I can get the handle/new battery setup that will get 4 hours. So...no buying batts right now for us.
Click to expand...

Certianly the new accessories will have a different integration factor in the Epic/Scarlet ecosystem, but I'm not sure I'd assume the battery situation is as you describe.

Battery technology has not changed that radically in the last year or two. While we don't have the capacities of the new batts spec'ed out for us yet, judging by their size, I'd guess a current Red Brick is probably the equivalent of 2-3 of the Epic batts in terms of power capacity.

It's likely then that the increased runtime and/or smaller batts on the new cams has more to do with decreased power draw than anything else. I'd be willing to bet a Red Brick by itself that you may buy now is good for ~2-3 hours of runtime on an Epic.

-sc
 
RED-BRICK

RED-BRICK

don't want RED Brick batteries that get one hour if I can get the handle/new battery setup that will get 4 hours.
Click to expand...

One of the reasons the new generation RED batteries will last so much last longer is because the EPIC consumes a lot less power.

So therefore an existing RED-BRICK 140 battery would also provide significantly extended run times if powering an EPIC camera.

The form factor isn't a match, but you can use a RED-BRICK via V-plate and cable to camera rear, just as it's used on a RED-ONE today.

Bottom line, if you are thinking of buying a RED-BRICK 140 battery in the near future, it's still a great investment....
 
Wow, this turned into a battery discussion overnight!

While I can appreciate the over-sampling factor and the ability to create a "true" 4K debayer, the majority of my work is for Web output, and as I said, I love using Varispeed, hence my dilemma.

Stuart, do you have any thoughts regarding the RAM? Could it take the high data rate that we're expecting from the Epic?
 
Media for EPIC

Media for EPIC

do you have any thoughts regarding the RAM? Could it take the high data rate that we're expecting from the Epic?
Click to expand...

There are good reasons why we are developing "new media" options.... as EPIC can do unprecedented combinations of frame rate and resolution the existing 16GB CF, RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM media will take you far, but not the whole way.
 
Stuart: is there any good reason you couldn't make an epic module to take a 2.5" SSD like this cinedeck?

The sata connectors are reasonably robust, maybe as much or more so than a CF card.
 

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Stuart English said:
There are good reasons why we are developing "new media" options.... as EPIC can do unprecedented combinations of frame rate and resolution the existing 16GB CF, RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM media will take you far, but not the whole way.
Click to expand...

Cryptic Red responses! gotta love them....

I believe that answers my question, though. Thanks Stuart!
 
Michael Hastings said:
Stuart: is there any good reason you couldn't make an epic module to take a 2.5" SSD like this cinedeck?

The sata connectors are reasonably robust, maybe as much or more so than a CF card.
Click to expand...

Sata connectors are by spec rated at 50 insertion cycles.

Some sata connectors go up to 250-500 cycles, but while you can control that on the receiving side, you can't control that on the drive side.

By comparison, CF is rated at 10000 cycles.
 
Stuart English said:
There are good reasons why we are developing "new media" options.... as EPIC can do unprecedented combinations of frame rate and resolution the existing 16GB CF, RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM media will take you far, but not the whole way.
Click to expand...

With Epic's high bitrates, I hope you guys can come up with a more affordable storage solution. If 250/225 MB/s is an overkill, and let's say around 120MB/s is used, if I'm not mistaken with current solution it would take $9000 for a ~36 min. of recording time - which is not enough for a painless workflow.

I definitely don't want to underestimate the cost of r&d and parts or your effort. This is my major concern regarding Epic, because additional five figures for storage might be too much for us and I'm guessing for many others as well.
 
If I am not mistaken, there were plans for scaled down (rather than cropped) recording modes at high frame rates. This feature could address your storage speed at high frame rates.
 
I was talking about high bitrates at 24/25 fps. Maybe I should have been more specific. :)
 
REDCODE RAW codec

REDCODE RAW codec

I was talking about high bitrates at 24/25 fps. Maybe I should have been more specific. :)
Click to expand...

Something to bear in mind when estimating media costs; unlike most video codecs used for recording, REDCODE RAW is a variable bit rate codec so there can be considerable difference between the PEAK and AVERAGE data rate.

As an example you could have a very complex scene that needs 80MB/s, but then the balance of shots only need between 30MB/s and 40MB/s.
 
Stuart English said:
Something to bear in mind when estimating media costs; unlike most video codecs used for recording, REDCODE RAW is a variable bit rate codec so there can be considerable difference between the PEAK and AVERAGE data rate.

As an example you could have a very complex scene that needs 80MB/s, but then the balance of shots only need between 30MB/s and 40MB/s.
Click to expand...

Thanks Stuart. I fully understand about the VBR part, I'm just hoping that switching from average 1:10 Redcode to average 1:5 Redcode (for example) won't be a drastic step in storage cost.
 
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