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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Era of RED "DSMC" with Scarlet & Epic... Canon "NO" more.

That's right Ketch, I'm with you on that. I love how this company, so far, is doing business with their customers.
 
Video people seem to completely forget than the 5D and 7D are primarily stills cameras and the spec sheets on them for still more than justifies the price disparity. People should be happy that Canon decided to take the suggestions of its customer base into consideration as they move forward with adding video to their DSLR lineup. More likely than not, the next big DSLR update from Canon will continue to refine the video functionality (Maybe full sensor scaling instead of line skipping for example).

I don't know why people can't accept that if you buy the best tool for the job at the time you buy it, sooner or later a better version of the tool will come along and RED hasn't changed though they have rendered "Obsolescence Obsolete". The new cams coming out are better spec'd than the One and you will have to pay money to move on up. While it is nice that they are moving to a modular system, there will still be a natural obsolescence to the modules as technology improves.

What this really boils down to is that people like having the shiniest toy on the street and they get pissed when Mr. Jones shows up with one that is the slightest bit shinier.
 
Please Andrew don't forget that I'm A PRO Photographer, and have been for over TWENTY years, and I'm not a video guy either, as I'm a FilmMaker/Cinematographer, never shot video in my LIFE.

But I do understand and hear you on some points, just not good in off for Canon no matter what they do they are still so gone it is not even funny to mention.
 
We all look forward to that day Epic and Scarlet ship, but some of us have camera dreams that are limited by our budgets, not to mention the disastrous economic climate in the past year. Pockets are running thin and while my heart says shoot raw, my head and wallet say buy a 7D and invest in some good photo glass.

I hope Scarlet acknowledges the current trend towards interchangeable cheap DSLR's and exceeds what the competition is offering. And even more I hope they can do this within the lower budgets.

The big advantage to this continual updating of cameras every few months is that the really talented people stand out above the technology. The tech isn't what's valuable, it's the talent operating that can switch from Red One, to EX1, to film, to 7D and still find a way to make the client happy no matter what the limitations of the camera.
 
This "war" will only work in our benefit. Canon is responding to Red and you know that get Jim and crew all fired up and we win in the end. I will go the way of the Red because of service and modularity even if Canon released a camera with nicer specs, because I know I can the part that needs updating and not the entire camera. But who knows... this is only the beginning.
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
I'm a FilmMaker/Cinematographer, never shot video in my LIFE.
Click to expand...

OT: How do you define the difference?

Technically "digital cinema" cameras and video capable DSLR's are video cameras too - there's nothing really that makes them inherently different from other digital video cameras, and to me personally, a production is by default "video" unless it's A) shot on film or B) shown in a movie theater. Not that "video" is in any way a bad thing in my opinion...
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
I'm not a video guy either, as I'm a FilmMaker/Cinematographer, never shot video in my LIFE.
Click to expand...

If you have shot Red, you have shot video.

Wikipedia definition of video...

Video is the technology of electronically capturing, recording, processing, storing, transmitting, and reconstructing a sequence of still images representing scenes in motion.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video
 
So what if you've shot RED for stills and not motion purposes?
 
Guys,

technical definitions and that of wikipedia are argument-al in the fact that they do not specify a media of capture by its data and or format.

In truth this is in deed a point that can be argued by each individual's professional knowledge and view of the video vs. non video Digital media acquisition system, and this is a point that was also recently argued in a known meeting Industry.

As for me I define the difference were RED ONE, my first Digital camera with which I shot a and captured a Motion sequence of scenes, does not represent and or is in the VIDEO category of cameras, its shoots a Proprietary RAW Codec, not a very compressed one as all consumer video cameras, exception of VIPER and such, and I don't consider those Video cameras either.

Again, this is my point, and how I see the large difference as any video cameras and HDslr's such as one that in fact I just acquire for doing a particular test, the GH1, this are machines that shoot video, do to their highly compressed images sequence they capture.

Also when I said I'm not a video guy, I intended more to the fact of shooting video, such as wedding videographers, documentary videographer, and so on, I'm a FilmMaker as I write, Produce, Direct and shoot Movies not videos, and this was more my intent of expression vs. that of the instrument with which the images were captured, but what for the images were captured.
 
I have to totally disagree with you. That's how technology works. When new technology comes along, new products become available. You just assume when buying a new computer or digital camera that by the time you replace it it's gonna be worth $11.

You just gotta have the self control to not buy every single one that comes out.

What I'm saying is this : I have a Nikon D2x. I'm not buying a D3 because obviously that would be ridiculous, I'm waiting for the D4 or even D5. But if the D3 didn't exist because they wanted my D2x to retain value, a guy buying his first DSLR today would be stuck with 6-year old technology. That's not cool!

When it comes to digital imaging, like computers, just pretend the used market doesn't exist. All these guys excited about cheap used R1s after Scarlet/Epic comes out...do they really think they'll be THAT cheap? People are going to want to recoup some of their investment so I bet these things will still cost more than a shiny new 3K Scarlet which I bet will be superior image-to-image (and unquestionably superior long-term-investment-wise in that it gets you into the new modular system).

Also, I totally disagree with your enthusiasm for the Epic-X trade-in program. I don't know exactly how many R1 owners there are, but since there's more than a couple dozen I feel confident saying that if they can afford to give them all a free Epic-X, the profit margins on all the other Scarlets/Epics (and probably the R1) are outrageous. Thumbs down.
 
Lee Saxon said:
I have to totally disagree with you. That's how technology works. When new technology comes along, new products become available. You just assume when buying a new computer or digital camera that by the time you replace it it's gonna be worth $11.

You just gotta have the self control to not buy every single one that comes out.

What I'm saying is this : I have a Nikon D2x. I'm not buying a D3 because obviously that would be ridiculous, I'm waiting for the D4 or even D5. But if the D3 didn't exist because they wanted my D2x to retain value, a guy buying his first DSLR today would be stuck with 6-year old technology. That's not cool!

When it comes to digital imaging, like computers, just pretend the used market doesn't exist. All these guys excited about cheap used R1s after Scarlet/Epic comes out...do they really think they'll be THAT cheap? People are going to want to recoup some of their investment so I bet these things will still cost more than a shiny new 3K Scarlet which I bet will be superior image-to-image (and which is unquestionably superior since it gets you into the new modular system).

Also, I totally disagree with your enthusiasm for the Epic-X trade-in program. I don't know exactly how many R1 owners there are, but since there's more than a couple dozen I feel confident saying that if they can afford to give them all a free Epic-X, the profit margins on all the other Scarlets/Epics (and probably the R1) are outrageous. Thumbs down.
Click to expand...


It can be how technology works but some companies sure take larger advantage and abuse then others.

I didn't have a camera, and moving from FILM, I got the 1D III, then added the 1Ds III to move to Full Frame, got screw with both cameras in one worst then the other, so I'm done with such company hat take so much of an advantage of technology against their customers!!

As far as your opinion for RED's policy and profit margins, that is entirely your opinion, and I'll not argue on the bases of an unfounded opinion.
 
Lee, those are good points.

However I think much of the dis-satisfaction comes, not from seeing technology advance, and at an extremenly rapid pace, even. But rather from realizing only AFTER the fact that a vendor has specifically crippled a current high-end product in order to protect sales of a model higher up the food chain that may get released shortly thereafter, and even concurrently but for a significantly higher price.

-sc
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
Guys,

technical definitions and that of wikipedia are argument-al in the fact that they do not specify a media of capture by its data and or format.
Click to expand...

You don't need to specify a media of capture or format in order to determine if it's video. There is only analog and digital. There is no such thing as digital film, because film is an analog format. It uses light interacting with silver to create an image. Analog.
Red cameras, and indeed all "digital" cameras, use electricity and code and sensors to generate footage. There is nothing analog about this process, except the building of the guts of the machine.


KETCH ROSSI said:
As for me I define the difference were RED ONE, my first Digital camera with which I shot a and captured a Motion sequence of scenes, does not represent and or is in the VIDEO category of cameras, its shoots a Proprietary RAW Codec, not a very compressed one as all consumer video cameras, exception of VIPER and such, and I don't consider those Video cameras either.
Click to expand...

Very complicated way of rationalizing an Auteur stance Ketch.
Compression has nothing to do with the basic idea of analog and digital technology.


KETCH ROSSI said:
Also when I said I'm not a video guy, I intended more to the fact of shooting video, such as wedding videographers, documentary videographer, and so on, I'm a FilmMaker as I write, Produce, Direct and shoot Movies not videos, and this was more my intent of expression vs. that of the instrument with which the images were captured, but what for the images were captured.
Click to expand...

Again, your trying to protect your notion of 'auteur'. Welcome to the cheap seats Ketch. We're all sitting there. It's only about the story and the photographic and directing talent now, baby.
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
As for me I define the difference were RED ONE, my first Digital camera with which I shot a and captured a Motion sequence of scenes, does not represent and or is in the VIDEO category of cameras, its shoots a Proprietary RAW Codec, not a very compressed one as all consumer video cameras, exception of VIPER and such, and I don't consider those Video cameras either.
Click to expand...

Well, i really don't see it at all like you do. That's as if you were saying that shooting still images is real photography only if you decide to save in RAW format, not jpg.

Consider this: if compression is what makes the difference, i could turn my $600 HDV camcorder into a non-video "cinema" camera simply by buying a HDMI card for my computer... okay, it wouldn't be raw, but uncompressed nevertheless.

...as you can guess, it doesn't really work that way.

All digital motion cameras are video cameras in the sense that they share the same core technology, regardless of the price or the form factor - or the format the images are saved in. Some of these video cameras are very, very good, but they're still video cameras. It really is simple as that. What makes some video cameras "digital cinema cameras" is mainly just their intended use.

As far as producing movies goes, to me the format it's shot on doesn't make THAT big a difference. When push comes to show, it's a real movie only when it has a theatrical release. In other words, a web video shot with 35mm film is still a web video ;-)
 
I don't really agree with the idea that Canon is in a war with RED. It doesn't seem like Canon is really aware of the competition. I think they're just reacting to their own customers requests while largely oblivious to RED.

I think the SLR manufacturers are only aware of one another and don't yet view RED as even a competitor.
 
guess the biggest threat then is the one unseen....
well...in any respect that is ALWAYS the biggest threat...

Good luck to the SLR Manufacturers then...
 
Lee Saxon said:
I don't know exactly how many R1 owners there are, but since there's more than a couple dozen I feel confident saying that if they can afford to give them all a free Epic-X, the profit margins on all the other Scarlets/Epics (and probably the R1) are outrageous. Thumbs down.
Click to expand...

since when are 8000-10 000 usd free?
 
Evolve said:
Welcome to the cheap seats Ketch. We're all sitting there. It's only about the story and the photographic and directing talent now, baby.
Click to expand...

i like this attitude very much:thumbsup:

but i am not sure ketch meant it the way you did understand it...on the other hand, my english is shitty...
 
My definitions and ways of explaining my opinion on Video vs. what I consider RED, might not hold up by specifications of words in the technical word, but to me they sure do hold up in the world of Physical Technology, again, I guess I should not have gone there, as I do not consider neither want to be a Tech guy, Graem Natress is.

But in short and more personal way, I personally see Video, so far away from what I do and what RED allows to do, and yes TRAW does have a tone to do with Professional work vs. over compressed JPG and other compressed formats, as you just simply can not manipulate the material as you would with RAW data.

I don't think neither do I need to protect any notions of what I' am or what I do, for now there is little to see but in time my work will speak for itself, but for now I have no doubts of what and I'm in my Profession.

If I miss understand some points, well please do forgive me as I'm also not from here :)

In general do, I believe I understand and hope to run across my points and individual opinions as friendly and with respect to others opinion as possible, I never speak for others, and always come from personal experiences, as it was in this case with Canon and RED.
 
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