Workflow 1 vs. 4 ...and multiclip

[Mark Allen]

I'm about to shoot a live show and we'll end up with about 16 takes per moment at the max, generally no less than 10.

I was thinking of transcoding to 4444 and being done with it, but then my friend said I should just use the red proxies.

Apparently the difference is the processor intensiveness and so I have 2 questions...

1) When using the proxies on a dual quad 3GHZ - am I going to have a problem with the processor demands? Is there any disadvantage of using the method for the workflow of editing?

2) I may want to use multiclip - would using proxy files prohibit this?

Thank you.

 

[jimhare]

Hi Mark,

If you are planning to use more than 2-3 cameras, I don't think you will be able to use multiclip with proxies, too much demand on the processor.

I use ProRes4444 and it's great. Very consistent performance.

Because ProRes throws away so much color information, my advice is to get the footage looking as close as you can when transcoding, so anything you need to do is only a minor tweak.

Best of luck,

Jim

 

[James Press]

Hi Mark,

Jim's got a lot of experience in this, so I won't try to claim I can offer much :blushing:

I use 4 cameras for live shooting in a talk-back style setup--2 Reds and 2 Canon--so I went down the same road as you Mark in relation to multiclip editing. I think multiclip editing in FCP with the proxies will be basically impossible, so you'll definitely have to transcode (to something). The only point I'd add to Jim's is that if you don't have RED Rocket™™ you'll be waiting DAYS for your rushes, so that's good impetus to get the look close to what you want for the finish.

Alternatively, you could do an offline edit where you do a low level debayer in Red Rushes (eg half standard) to a small output like ProRes standard NTSC/PAL resolution, for example (so your output time from RedRushes would be about 3:1--any higher debayer and you're up to 6-20:1); then do the multiclip; and then reconform to the original r3ds (using something like Clipfinder) so you can have access to the full color info in Color for grading.

Obviously, depending on your deliverable, if you can get the color look close (not perfect, but close) in RedAlert/RED Rocket™™, then multiclip editing in ProRes 4x4 would save you work at the end. You can push ProRes around a reasonable amount in Color in my experience. I'm sure you'll be aware that the look (RSX) has to be acceptable for the entire length of the clip (usually the whole show), so scrub through and you'll no doubt have to compromise to get something that works for most of it. FWIT I just got RED Rocket™™ but can get the look so close for my takes (usually around 2 hours) that I'm happy transcoding to ProResHQ and just grade that (if at all) in Color. I'm shooting in a well-lit studio though, not a dark concert hall...Best of luck with it.

 

[jimhare]

Very good advice James!

 

[Mark Allen]

Thanks both of you.

The idea of doing a proxy version which would allow me to basically get the overall impression of the show at first until I narrow it down is interesting. Are you saying I could do this and then still end up in Color? I'm not sure sure about clipfinder... is that reliable? Would it be possible (like in AE) to just arrange everything with the proxies in FCP and then make my proxies from there and swap back later?

 

[James Press]

The idea of doing a proxy version which would allow me to basically get the overall impression of the show at first until I narrow it down is interesting. Are you saying I could do this and then still end up in Color?

Yes. This is a commonly used workflow--in fact, as I understand, it's one of the main reasons why Apple developed the new ProRes LT codec (for use as a low res "proxy" version of your high res original footage).

I'm not sure sure about clipfinder... is that reliable?

I personally haven't used Clipfinder (or other reconforming software eg Monkey Extract) because I don't use an offline workflow, but all indications on RedUser are that it's an excellent piece of software that is completely reliable. Vocal Apple workflow specialists on RedUser like Kaku Ito apparently regularly use Clipfinder. I would not hesitate. Certainly run a test to see for yourself.

Would it be possible (like in AE) to just arrange everything with the proxies in FCP and then make my proxies from there and swap back later?

I cannot speak to AE unfortunately, I've never used it.

In relation to "just arrange everything with the proxies in FCP and then make my proxies from there and swap back later", I think you'll have some issues. Firstly, when you use the QT proxies you have to have ALL the original r3d footage on your system. If you're talking about up to 16 cameras, shooting say a 90 minute show, in say 4KHD (at about 130 GB/hr) that's a truck load of online footage (3.12TB!) that your editing station has to store. (Mind you, going the offline route still means you'll need access to the original footage at some point, but not during the cutting/multiclip phase, when your processors will be going flatout).

Secondly, I just don't think you can do a many-camera multiclip edit via the proxies. Multiclip editing in FCP requires all the clips to be matching codecs, frame rates, resolution etc, so it's pretty particular, and I don't think it will cope with as many cameras as you're anticipating to use (Mark I could very well be wrong about this--I just tested using 2 angles/clips, and it was waaaay slow (I'm on an early 2008 2.8Ghz Octo 8GB MacPro)--but I've got FCP also doing a "share", so not sure how much that could be slowing it down--you could easily do a quick test to find out).

Bear in mind that the QTs don't play back smoothly like a transcoded codec like ProRes--it's "stuttery". Sure you can edit this way (and I did for a while when we only used 2 Reds), but honestly, when you then go to a transcoded clip it's sooooo much nicer to work with. You can judge eyelines (or in your case, drum strikes, guitar chord strikes etc) exactly rather than a "best guess somewhere in this half second".

Realistically, doing what you're suggesting is what ProResLT was designed for. Just try a quick test (from memory Clipfinder is pretty affordable, like $80).

And finally, just cause we're now into dissertation length, please don't take this the wrong way, but it is worth asking: what are the credentials of your colleague who suggested using the QT proxies? How experienced is he with Red workflow? Does he really know that ProRes4x4 won't be able to get you acceptable/good/fantastic colour in Color, given the nature of your shoot? Just because you can go back to the r3ds doesn't mean you always should/need to.

Just some thoughts Mark. No matter what you decide you've got some good options :thumbsup:

James