IBC '09? There's a new Canon camera to be announced soon (Canon source)

[Emanuel A.]

From a Canon rep this friday when I was wondering them about the 7D features vs. the lack of them @ 5D Mark II.

There's 24p/25p on their DSLRs just 'cause there's something new on their video line to come.

They are aware of RED.

And they want to steal the RED market...

«before RED may have capability to launch Scarlet and Epic. We have the technology, we have everything, we are the manufacturers of the most modern lenses and even our competitors' lenses fit on our DSLRs (ala RED), not quite the opposite» ~ Canon rep's words

Last but not least, RED cannot compete with their price target (economies of scale?), according my source.

He also praised the Canon service and sales chain network. «You can feel our presence in any specialized local store or big shopping center (ala Walmart)» when I faced him with Jim's experience and his business model success (reduser.net, big hollywood names like Peter Jackson, Steven Soderbergh, Nicholas Cage or european auteurs like Lars von Trier) and Jim's fame like a rock star but directly in touch with his clients. He said something like «We don't need that. We are stronger because we have other tools». When I kept my silence, he finished: «We are Canon, who else would have a product like 5D Mark II sold out in many sellers a year after its release in a middle of a storm (the crisis) ?»

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I was talking about the similar situation that can be described as a RED vs. Canon in couple of treads before here at the forum.

You can "feel" or "listen" in the "air" what is going on behind the curtain.

 

[Liam Hall]

Who is your source? It's just pointless internet rambling without a quoted source. I want names

 

[David Rasberry]

This should be interesting to watch, but I am very skeptical that we will see anything much better in terms of recording formats from Canon than what they are already doing. That won't be good enough except at the high end consumer/low end pro market where they have always played in the video world. I would be somewhat impressed if they came up with at least a 2/3" format camera that recorded something like native Prores 4:4:4 HD, for something like Scarlet's price.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Who is your source? It's just pointless internet rambling without a quoted source. I want names

I'm sorry. I know the person. I won't post the name in any way other than as this information about our informal conversation and what matters about his ID. It isn't who sold me the 5D Mark II. It is another Canon rep used to fly to Japan at times. He was who gave me information about the first IS implementation on lenses before its release, for example. More than a decade ago, somewhere between 1993-94. He had flown to Japan for internal briefing on the subject. I remember I was a steadicam enthusiast and he said, wait and see. We already have OIS. First time I heard about, by his mouth.

«RED has pushing the race but Canon will get more sales in the end. Canon came first. We are aware but not afraid of Jannard.»

This written translation to english is mine but this 'Jannard' is not. I think his mention was Scarlet, obviously not Epic. Even though, the Canon people are used to make mention of Epic. It is not the first time I've heard the word Epic on their mouth. He also mentioned the Euro (or USD) 1699 APS-C 35mm 24p/25p milestone vs. the 2/3" Scarlet for a higher price. Without forgetting to make mention of their 2/3" broadcast lenses. Got it? The Scarlet market is the obvious target. The 7D release, the obvious part of the iceberg. I kept the idea that the 5D Mark II has been a market test to them. Perhaps the things will become hotter from now.

 

[Emanuel A.]

This should be interesting to watch, but I am very skeptical that we will see anything much better in terms of recording formats from Canon than what they are already doing. That won't be good enough except at the high end consumer/low end pro market where they have always played in the video world. I would be somewhat impressed if they came up with at least a 2/3" format camera that recorded something like native Prores 4:4:4 HD, for something like Scarlet's price.

Not even a word about specs. APS-C sensor size, etc, nada. I didn't understand if he was bluffing about what he seemed to know more than he was really saying. He just was happy, self-confident.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

if they want they can do a lot...but why should they?

we are in a niche market, and there is a point where a picture is simply good enough for the mass market.



we are in total maybe 10 000-25 000 shooters worldwide, who really care about the last bit of information in a picture.


ok, throughing out numbers like 2k/4k is always cool...but i think they will stay heavily compressed...because not everybody has 10 TB at home and whats more important doesnt want to.

Arri will present a new digital cam at IBC. I know it will be more expensive than a red.

but what do i know

at the end with RED i get something what i dont get with Canon.

1. fun at an online forum
2. credit towards a new product

 

[Felix K.]

Even if! They will never have an updateable modular system like RED. That would make them a different company. Nothing against Canon. I have the XL-2 and I liked working with it. I have the 400D and like working with that too. I like their glass and that EOS-lenses are around for a long time now and you can use them on all the new DSLR that come out.
But they never are that open to suggestions and if they were, well, than you'd have to buy a new camera because updating the old system is kind of "naaah" with them. (There has never been a firmware update on the XL2 afaik and boy, does it need one!)
So sorry, but keep your 5D MII and your 7D and whatever they come up with now. It's a shame that it took them so long and that someone like Jim had to come and show how they are toying with us, our money and our needs as filmmakers (well, YOUR needs as filmmakers... I'm just starting off, kinda...)...
It's not a shame that Jim's built RED though more like the awesome opposite!

 

[Emanuel A.]

if they want they can do a lot...but why should they?

we are in a niche market, and there is a point where a picture is simply good enough for the mass market.



we are in total maybe 10 000-25 000 shooters worldwide, who really care about the last bit of information in a picture.


ok, throughing out numbers like 2k/4k is always cool...but i think they will stay heavily compressed...because not everybody has 10 TB at home and whats more important doesnt want to.

Arri will present a new digital cam at IBC. I know it will be more expensive than a red.

but what do i know

at the end with RED i get something what i dont get with Canon.

1. fun at an online forum
2. credit towards a new product

Kaya,

Same idea here. A curious note though, he was aware of Jon, former Canon now part of RED team.

E.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

From a Canon rep this friday when I was wondering them about the 7D features vs. the lack of them @ 5D Mark II.

There's 24p/25p on their DSLRs just 'cause there's something new on their video line to come.

They are aware of RED.

And they want to steal the RED market...

«before RED may have capability to launch Scarlet and Epic. We have the technology, we have everything, we are the manufacturers of the most modern lenses and even our competitors' lenses fit on our DSLRs (ala RED) but not quite the opposite» ~ Canon rep's words

Last but not least, RED cannot compete with their price target (economies of scale?), according my source.

He also praised the Canon service and sales chain network. «You can feel our presence in any specialized local store or big shopping center (ala Walmart)» when I faced him with Jim's experience and his business model success (reduser.net, big hollywood names like Peter Jackson, Steven Soderbergh, Nicholas Cage or european auteurs like Lars von Trier) and Jim's fame like a rock star but directly in touch with his clients. He said something like «We don't need that. We are stronger because we have other tools». When I kept my silence, he finished: «We are Canon, who else would have a product like 5D Mark II sold out in many sellers a year after its release in a middle of a storm (the crisis) ?»

Emanuel, just my ONE cent worth here,

your Canon Rep, can talk all He/She wants about what He/She might fill about what RED and Jim are doing, the way RED has decided to run their business and what they present and or offering, as well as give His/Hers opinion on what Canon might represent and or do in response to Scarlet/Epic, but that ends there!

I have more insides and ways of knowing things more then any Canon Rep (reseller) can ever have, as my sources come from direct relationship with manufacturer in Japan, limited always to the fine line of Corporate lows, for infringement contract to secrecy.

What it is coming and what they can/will do about Scarlet, believe me when I tell you will be absolutely of no effect to our community of REDUSERS and those that like us look for quality and willing to pay just but few extra $$ to get it, Canon simply does not follow RED's marketing strategy, not only on the Business model, but in the Production stages, as their interest has been and always will be the masses, and get them again and again with small in off upgrades that they get you to come back again and again, I was one of those IDIOTS, left with no choice and or alternatives, but I have now sold every single piece of CANON gear ever owned, and guess what? There is an alternative.. is called "RED" and SCARLET is almost here, Epic really represent NO comparison tables that Canon can even think of getting close to it.

Off course Emanuel no disrespect to you or your source, but this is how it really is.

 

[Jim Klatt]

Off course Emanuel no disrespect to you or your source, but this is how it really is.

There is no doubt that this is how it really is for you, but everyone has their own truth, depending on their own situation. I think that should be respected.

 

[jimhare]

Interesting. Kind of like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs arguing.

Steve Jobs could say "ours is better" and Bill Gates would say "doesn't matter, we'll sell more anyway."

As long as Canon are using heavy lossy compression, their cameras will never do what a Red can do.

If they are only interested in selling more units than Red, I'm sure they will accomplish this, but it's not the same thing.

If Jim and co just wanted to sell high numbers, they would have developed a cool watch or breakfast cereal.

This game is not won with numbers.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

There is no doubt that this is how it really is for you, but everyone has their own truth, depending on their own situation. I think that should be respected.

Yes off course, we are talking about "OPINIONS" the one above is mine, based on my experience, knowledge of facts, and how I fill after been a CANON shooter for over twenty years.

 

[Jim Klatt]

I think the real winner through all of this will be Hitler videos.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Emanuel, just my ONE cent worth here,

your Canon Rep, can talk all He/She wants about what He/She might fill about what RED and Jim are doing, the way RED has decided to run their business and what they present and or offering, as well as give His/Hers opinion on what Canon might represent and or do in response to Scarlet/Epic, but that ends there!

I have more insides and ways of knowing things more then any Canon Rep (reseller) can ever have, as my sources come from direct relationship with manufacturer in Japan, limited always to the fine line of Corporate lows, for infringement contract to secrecy.

What it is coming and what they can/will do about Scarlet, believe me when I tell you will be absolutely of no effect to our community of REDUSERS and those that like us look for quality and willing to pay just but few extra $$ to get it, Canon simply does not follow RED's marketing strategy, not only on the Business model, but in the Production stages, as their interest has been and always will be the masses, and get them again and again with small in off upgrades that they get you to come back again and again, I was one of those IDIOTS, left with no choice and or alternatives, but I have now sold every single piece of CANON gear ever owned, and guess what? There is an alternative.. is called "RED" and SCARLET is almost here, Epic really represent NO comparison tables that Canon can even think of getting close to it.

Off course Emanuel no disrespect to you or your source, but this is how it really is.

Ciao Ketch!

Generally speaking, I agree with you. Don't shoot the messenger ;-) Thanks Jim K. for your care, anyway.

This is not the first time I've had a conversation of this kind with people connected to the traditional brands. The talk is always ending in the same way. I had heard the same thing from Nikon nine months ago when Jim was prepping one of his announcements. I think they're obviously following up the RED business model success with a certain kind of envy, 'cause it is something really new and RED has grown up a lot. Scarlet 2/3" threats the Canon broadcast lenses, for example.

But don't pick quick assumptions up about what you can't surely know. This guy is well connected. Not sure if he ever met Jon. But he knew his name, for instance. And I know he's used to visit Canon Japan 'cause he brought me some accurate pre-information well earlier than the public release in the past.

I also think their target is Scarlet. But don't think they are not aware of RED, 'cause they actually are. They're releasing their product based on this, as this banner of propaganda from Canon and already mentioned here by others easily shows:

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well, has anyone else heard anything about some kind of announcement at IBC about a Canon digital cinema camera? Rumors have been circulating for 6 months now.

"We are aware but not afraid of Jannard."

Sure they're not afraid. That's why they are suddenly changing a decades' long policy of withholding HD technology and crippling their HD cameras.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Interesting. Kind of like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs arguing.

Steve Jobs could say "ours is better" and Bill Gates would say "doesn't matter, we'll sell more anyway."

LOL It is funny how the psychology applies. Like that. :thumbsup:

Scarlet is their target, the person didn't explicitly say it. But that's what I got from there.

As said, this is not the first time I have had a talk with people from a DSLR brand/rep about the subject RED. They are lurkers among us. After all, who isn't online nowadays? I remember a guy from Nikon and the label he used to stick on the RED in just a few minutes of a short phone call: born in the web. We all know this brand is a way more than cybernetics. The 7D release is the prelude of their response to the Jim's Scarlet targeting as a real menace to their native market IMO. And vice versa.

 

[jimhare]

Hi Emanuel, I agree, Scarlet is definitely their target. But since Scarlet will shoot REDCODE, the footage will be much more flexible in post.

Having said that, $1695 for a 7D is very tempting! :sifone:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

If, as Canon says, they can do it, why is that they haven't done it yet? It took me a couple of weekends and a Dremel tool, so it can't be that hard for Canon :001_tt2:

 

[Irmeli R]

lovely Pawel!

chuckle..a dremel tool? next time send me the body and i'll machine it on our 4 axis cnc mill..for free