August is nigh - anyone able to sleep?

[David Rasberry]

I have a feeling that if there are problems that cause significant delays Jim will give us a heads up.

No news can be good news.

 

[Ethan Cooper]

2 months will turn into 4 months. It sure seems like Decemberish or early 2010 is going to be the time when we see these come to market.

I can wait, but like many of you money comes and goes without notice and I'm hoping I've got the cash when they come out.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Well Ian. That's why we don't get speculation anymore. Thanks a lot.

Indeed.

It quite frankly ticks me off that much of the reason we AREN'T getting more as-we-go info is exaclty because people like this couldn't act like a big boy and realize that the is a new stinkin' trail that's being blazed and therefore it's a best estimate.

And has always been billed as such. But there are folks that always beat the schedule horse as if Jim hasn't been completely upfront about this bing a contunual work in progress. And now we have almost complete silence regarding the development effort as a result.

Oh, in case you hadn't noticed... the whining hasn't made cameras appear any faster.

Good job. :cursing:

-sc

 

[Steven Caesare]

As much as I would love to have a Scarlet in hand, me too. Get em rock solid before release. :thumbup1:

I don't get this. It's not like Red One was unusable. It had issues. Some things that needed to be fixed. And some promised features that needed to be added. And then a bunch more features we were NEVER promised showed up for free.

Given the same set of resources, it will still take just as long to implment them. And without significant end-user feedback, it may actually take LONGER to implment fixes or come up with new features.

So, would you rather have a camera in August that has some rough edges, where you can: 1) get up to speed on it, 2) earn some money within it's current limitations, 3) provide some feedback regarding software feature set, and then have what you consider to be the "FINISHED" camera six months later in February.

Or... would you rather wait in silence for six additional months until the camera is realeased in February and then have to start climbing the learning curve and having to begin earning money six months later?.

Oh, and now that it gets widespread use, it will still then have a few more bugs uncovered later in the game that will require fixing?. And you will probably be much harder to get sofware features changes now that they are alread in place and it's much harder to change functionality that others are depending on as opposed to shaping a feature prior to it's implementation.

I don't get you guys. When my house is being built I go walk the site and construction several times a week along the way...

-sc

 

[David Rasberry]

I don't get this. It's not like Red One was unusable. It had issues. Some things that needed to be fixed. And some promised features that needed to be added. And then a bunch more features we were NEVER promised showed up for free.

Red One is the beta test prototype for Scarlet/Epic. All of the bugs that have been addressed, new features, and performance improvements will carry forward into the new models too.
I am sure there will be software bugs and upgrades for the new cameras too. But they also will be debugging a new hardware platform that will have its own set of problems, and testing everything thoroughly enough to insure we don't have to deal with recalls to fix hardware issues just makes sense. As Jim said, they don't want to release another prototype.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Red One is the beta test prototype for Scarlet/Epic. All of the bugs that have been addressed, new features, and performance improvements will carry forward into the new models too.
I am sure there will be software bugs and upgrades for the new cameras too. But they also will be debugging a new hardware platform that will have its own set of problems, and testing everything thoroughly enough to insure we don't have to deal with recalls to fix hardware issues just makes sense. As Jim said, they don't want to release another prototype.

My feeling is that Jim said that because of all the whining here. I think he rather enjoyed the iterative devlopment/feedback process here, as did many others.

While he may have used the word "prototype" because of folks here, let's face it... it wasn't any where near that bad. It was relased with enought features and functionality to get work done, with the full disclusure that the architecture was there to add more features as time went on.

-sc

 

[Imran Farouk]

Steven does have a point but I think Jim just has to cover himself and the RED team from being slammed for releasing a product that everyone goes 'bugs bugs bugs', obviously there won't be THAT many bugs, I mean look at the RED One, features are being shot on it and its developing every day, new issues, new solutions, community who helps each other and fixes,

Scarlet will be the same thing, we will recieve the came, now, tomorrow, 2 months or even 2 years...(hopefully not that long) and because of the way RED is, we will have the same work ways as RED One, new issues, new solutions etc.

Though Jim has mentioned, its not going to be a public release at first, a few individuals or groups will get their hands on the camera who are going to work it till it drops, sort of like when the RED One was pre-public...Peter Jackson's short sort of style...but obviously over a certain period...that will iron out any bugs that are dead obvious and can be fixed, from that point on when its running relatively smooth I think Jim will be happy to release it, his not saying he won't keep us in the loop, at that beta point I'm sure information will run slightly more free then now.

To keep this from going 'You said september' or 'You said summer 2009' etc. they are keeping tight lipped for a bit, last I looked, the release dates are all taken from the spec booklet thing...

As some may say...'the natives are hungry' but the natives will learn to adapt eventually, but right before that RED will give them something to return to being hungry

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Have amyone noticed that the estimated dates are removed from Red's website (http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/)?

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I don't get this. It's not like Red One was unusable. It had issues. Some things that needed to be fixed. And some promised features that needed to be added. And then a bunch more features we were NEVER promised showed up for free.

It is smart to get these rock-solid before release. RED will be dealing with a whole new user base - they won't have the patience to deal with bugs because they are not likely to be as mired in the history of its development - less appreciation, more demands, less patient with the progress.

Not all of the early adopters were really all that patient. It's hard to plan around a camera that requires patience and forebearance.

Fortunately, the camera evolved past that point, of requiring much patience, somewhere after Build 16 - but it did take time.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't get this. It's not like Red One was unusable. It had issues. Some things that needed to be fixed. And some promised features that needed to be added. And then a bunch more features we were NEVER promised showed up for free.

Red One is the beta test prototype for Scarlet/Epic. All of the bugs that have been addressed, new features, and performance improvements will carry forward into the new models too.
I am sure there will be software bugs and upgrades for the new cameras too. But they also will be debugging a new hardware platform that will have its own set of problems, and testing everything thoroughly enough to insure we don't have to deal with recalls to fix hardware issues just makes sense. As Jim said, they don't want to release another prototype.

There it is in a nutshell. Red One was introduced as a Beta, and you all have been testers. It's a clever development method if you ask me. A larger pool of testers in the field as opposed to a lab gains them more varied and practical feedback, and at the same time the sales brought capital for the development. The method gives the appearance of an accelerated development cycle, builds buzz, brings third party developers on board and subsidizes itself.

I believe like David does; the Epic/Scarlet isn't intended to roll out as a beta; it will be market ready on day one. If I remember Jim's remarks accurately, they plan to have enough units at release to meet early demand, so any kind of recall will be something to avoid at all costs. Expect the new models to be very clean.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Jim weigh in on this thread. With that, and Ted's comments in Germany, it is optimistically looking like Dec or Feb... cool.

 

[David Rasberry]

There it is in a nutshell. Red One was introduced as a Beta, and you all have been testers. It's a clever development method if you ask me. A larger pool of testers in the field as opposed to a lab gains them more varied and practical feedback, and at the same time the sales brought capital for the development. The method gives the appearance of an accelerated development cycle, builds buzz, brings third party developers on board and subsidizes itself.

RED One owners, especially the early adopters, have well earned their full value trade in and other perks IMHO. Hats off to them all and to RED TEAM for sticking with it. ONE just gets better and better with every update.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hmm

Hmm

Good to know about the rough time frame for a next announcement...

But what horrible state of the economy? This excuse has been used over and over to justify just about anything. Just say it's the technology, which I'm sure it is, and that is totally commendable. Wanting to release the best product possible. That is a great call and worth waiting for. But I get a bit tired of hearing about, "Well, we can't do a fireworks show this year, you know, the economy." "Well no Thanksgiving this year, you know it's the economy." Yeah, ok whatever. People use this excuse for everything just to justify laziness, and even when that's clearly not the case here it still comes across wrong.

Especially because... sorry, but check the news. I do. The economy is doing much better now, in fact it's officially a bull market run (BY FAR), from 6,600 stock market to more than 9,000, that's more than a 35% increase from the low, and over 20% is a bull market. That aside, the high unemployment numbers make little difference to the film industry, which isn't dependent on the broader economy. Ticket sales have been excellent despite the recession. It has never mattered whether it's a good or bad economy for Hollywood. And many of us have plenty of money on the sidelines, just waiting to buy the Scarlet. So I fully appreciate wanting to release the best product possible -- no need to hide behind the (false) argument that the economy is horrible and it's no time to release anything. Cameras have never relied on a good economy for release. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Scott Crawley]

RED One owners, especially the early adopters, have well earned their full value trade in and other perks IMHO. Hats off to them all and to RED TEAM for sticking with it. ONE just gets better and better with every update.

Sho 'Nuff.

I don't know of any other company that leverages the internet for R&D as well as Red does. Does anybody know of other examples?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Sho 'Nuff.

I don't know of any other company that leverages the internet for R&D as well as Red does. Does anybody know of other examples?

Most privately owned software companies.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Good to know about the rough time frame for a next announcement...

But what horrible state of the economy? This excuse has been used over and over to justify just about anything. Just say it's the technology, which I'm sure it is, and that is totally commendable. Wanting to release the best product possible. That is a great call and worth waiting for. But I get a bit tired of hearing about, "Well, we can't do a fireworks show this year, you know, the economy." "Well no Thanksgiving this year, you know it's the economy." Yeah, ok whatever. People use this excuse for everything just to justify laziness, and even when that's clearly not the case here it still comes across wrong.

Especially because... sorry, but check the news. I do. The economy is doing much better now, in fact it's officially a bull market run (BY FAR), from 6,600 stock market to more than 9,000, that's more than a 35% increase from the low, and over 20% is a bull market. That aside, the high unemployment numbers make little difference to the film industry, which isn't dependent on the broader economy. Ticket sales have been excellent despite the recession. It has never mattered whether it's a good or bad economy for Hollywood. And many of us have plenty of money on the sidelines, just waiting to buy the Scarlet. So I fully appreciate wanting to release the best product possible -- no need to hide behind the (false) argument that the economy is horrible and it's no time to release anything. Cameras have never relied on a good economy for release. That just doesn't make sense.

1. If you think the US economy is improving, you should read the opinions of free-market economists, not Keynesians. Our economy is a farce, based on consumer debt-financed spending, not production.

2. It doesn't matter if Hollywood is still cranking out movies and doing well. Part of Jim's gameplan is to sell THOUSANDS of these cameras to regular joes and smaller production companies, just like he did with Red One. Hollywood only uses hundreds of cameras, not thousands or tens of thousands, like the DSMC line could sell, especially with Scarlet sales.

3. The average US citizen is broke, deeply in debt and skeptical of spending large amounts of money on major electronics purchases, like DSMC. So again, it really doesn't matter how well Hollywood is doing, if average Amercians are broke and deeply in debt.

4. I don't think it's wise to question Jim Jannard regarding his statements that the economy is bad that it is playing a role in his production plans. The guy is a billionaire. How many billions of dollars and successful international mega-companies do you have?

 

[David Rasberry]

There have been over 70 bank failures so far this year too. More than twice as many as last year. They have been dealt with very quietly so as not to spark a panic. As far as the borrow and spend routine, whether government or us, the bill is coming due.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Jim,

I appreciate the comments above giving some indication of timing.
One thing I am struggling to do is track down any indicators of package weights, controls, automatic features etc. Surely by this point - ASIC spin these elements are pretty much set in stone?

I am in the middle of making purchasing decisions on grip equipment - which is going to be costing many times the amount of my cheapo HD camcorder - I want to be able to make sure I don't have to buy it all again when I get my lovely new Scarlet kit!
Any idea of the weight of a basic Broadcast ENG style cam setup (inc batteries, VF, LCD, recording module etc) with either the s35 or 2/3" (non fixed) brain and an average lens would be really helpful. Just ballpark figures so I can know if I need the tripod and head that can support up to **kgs or the more affordable model that can only support up to **kgs (or lbs, excuse my metric-ness I'm from England and young enough to be partially metric minded).

Thanks ina advance for any feedback.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Further questions/ musings. - I ended up writing all this but thought I'd cut it out and put it in a separate post as otherwise it's all just too much:

What also concerns me is if RED scarlet will really be suitable to my needs. I really want the image quality and the price is great but controls and automation have had no real mention. I see myself often being a one man band - shooting doc's and such. More realistic aspirations than Drama for me. Will there be the kind of controls and automation features that would allow me to shoot fig rig style if and when required - one man recording sound, filming and thinking about all the directorial questions at the same time in a live reality doc situation? This would need autofocus, autoexposure, even audio AGC , PPM in EVF/LCD for audio monitoring( if you could set a max gain level so you never open up the noise floor on AGC that would be cool) Zoom rocker, remote control of all of the above from a pan bar handle or wherever req. For run and gun situations I would also need all the dials, controls, knobs and switches to be right on hand just like a standard Broadcast ENG camera - minus the ones you don't need when shooting raw - though see below. I know that RED has really been about revolutionizing film making - and been popular with indie filmmakers but the way the Scarlets are priced I see them as competing with Broadcast ENG cameras and in the case of the 2/3" models the Sony EX1's, Z1's and such. They will trounce them in terms of Image Quality but will they have the ergonomics , controls and automation features that will allow TV people to consider using them?
In the case of the Z1's etc they are used and owned by almost every TV production company over here by the Producers, Directors, Researchers, AP's etc as second or even primary cameras. I.e. they are used by non cameramen, multiskillers who can grab shots to record a scene for their reality shows. I know reality shows may be a dirty word around here but even in these situations people want image quality and aspire to better production values- at least I hope they do. So if they can get a similar camera with much better IQ then they will go for it.
Affordability of recording media/ storage space and streamlined edit workflow would be the next consideration for these people. Most I think would not care so much about 3k or 5k since most broadcast delivery and broadcast is still in SD. HD 1080 for future proofing andpossible HD sale or if for and HD channel. But anything more would be if hoping for possible cinema release or just for HQ archival purposes. Many would just want a direct HD 1080 recording module that gave an edit ready output - as in Pro res 422 or something equivalent for the windows people. This module would have to have physical button controls for all the standard things on broadcast cams like Gamma/ knee etc. Perhaps you could also record your red raw at the same time for archival purposes. It would also need to be cheap enough to keep the price competitive with existing cams - like the Z1 or EX1. 1080 recording would want to be without windowing on the sensor (except of course any crop in to achieve the aspect ratio if the chip is other than 16:9) With this setup though, one would be bound to ask where have the biggest benefits of RED gone (affordable 5k and Redcode raw)? Well I don't really know but they would be there when I want them without me having to fork out for two different cameras - 1 for tv work - 1 for high end work.

Apologies for the endless mind dribble.... any comments/ thoughts appreciated though...

 

[Quentin Brown]

Oh and one final thing - burst mode:

I really like using slow mo - or at least the option to do it anyway.
I really would like the S35 or larger Scarlet for the DOF characteristics but would miss the framerates available to the 2/3" models, I can't afford both and can only just imagine stretching to the s35 at a pinch. I would just like to know if it can only do very limited bursts of slow mo at 72fps for only ten seconds or so or if you could film for a minute or more so it becomes a but more useful. Any inkling of an idea about this would be appreciated and would let me know just how much of my stuff i should start selling off on ebay to raise funds for my new scarlet!

 

[Quentin Brown]

Sorry for all the above, frenzy of enthusiasm coupled with dismay that the Scarlet may not be the be all and end all for me if I want to do ENG/ EFP.

I have now found the RED as ENG/EFP camera section of the forum. Perhaps this post would be more appropriate there. I have also read the RED one manual. So some things have been answered for me. As long as none of the controls, features and i/o from the RED one is absent from the scarlet I will be fairly well catered for.

The only additions would be live 1080p and 1080i output over HDSDI and HDMI.

Phantom power of other ratings for lower power requirement mics so the batteries don't drain so quick.

Real hardware Pan pots for each audio channel and proper/finer PPM - not a must but would be nice, as would use of a more standardised input level as discussed elsewhere.

Weathersealing so I can film in the humid jungle and during rainstorms without being too worried.

Full support for B4 mount lenses automatic features - not only the powered zoom servo but also auto exposure and autofocus systems.

Audio recording during high framerate varispeed capture. Sometimes I may shoot stuff thinking I want to go slow-mo but decide to remap it to standard speed and would want the sync audio for this.

A nice, intra frame high bitrate edit friendly format for the FF1080p recording mode. The high bitrate is because of BBC HD submission delivery format specs.

(The current BBC HD submission delivery formats document specifies that up to 25% of a programmes source material can be from SD sources. This is not as simple or clear cut as it sounds, they define standard definition as follows:

2.1. Standard definition
The following formats are considered to be standard definition:
o All standard definition video formats
o HDV from all manufactures
o Cameras with image sensors under ½”
o Frame based (intra-frame) recording formats below 100Mbs
o Inter-frame based recording formats below 50Mbs
o Super16 film whether transferred to tape in high definition or not
o 35mm film transferred to or copied from standard definition tape formats
o Non linear editing codecs with bit rates below 160Mbs
o Live contributions links of less than 60Mbs (MPEG2)
o 720 line equipment with the exception of the Panasonic Varicam
AJ-HDC27 range and the Panasonic AJ-HDX900 range*
*Other 720 line equipment may be acceptable but must be discussed prior to use)

Also possibly a FF1080i mode as final subs for BBC HD have to be in 1080i25 format and all graphics, stings etc must be rendered in this interlace format for the final submission (to avoid unacceptable judder on playback they say)

Oh and of course all the handy knobs switches and dials to accompany the FF1080 recording modes as I assume they wont be in REDCODE-raw and will need video processing into RGB space, therefore will need all the controls like on a normal ENG/EFP camera.

Just a small list of features there and too late in the production process for them to go in if not in the pipeline already I'm sure.
Still these combined would make the scarlet my ultimate Cine/Still/ENG/EFP camera. (yes Still also - I would like to see these features on a s35 and FF35 Scarlet too).

Next for the antigravity Tripod!