Build 20 for low light?

[Juan Qi An]

Help!

I have an upcoming TVC shoot and the director (who is very experienced with the RED) has requested, or rather insisted on using the RED on build 17 for a night scene to capture the city skyline as well as DETAIL in the night sky. We did some test shoots a couple days ago but the results weren't promising. Noise was very evident and there wasnt much detail even after boosting up the iso to 640 ( anything over 640 was more or less unusable ). I understand that the new build 20 has a significant improvement in low light conditions. Would that be a better option? We are just slightly paranoid about upgrading as it is still a beta version, though a very good one.

Any insights or experiences to share?

Thanks!
Juan Qi An
RED Wrangler
BERT LIGHTING HOUSE
SINGAPORE

 

[Rob van Gelder]

In my testing I found a reduction in the noise in the blacks, a more even pattern of noise, similar to filmgrain with less blocking artifacts.

It is a difference, but not a major one, so don't expect wonders.
Skin colors look more natural, a bit less saturation overall, specially in the reds and purples. Easily adjusted in any color correction program.

Besides this, the RED has in my opinion under Tungsten lighting (and everything not similar to daylight) an effective ISO of 100-125.
Of course you can crank up the ISO to 640 (or more) on the camera, but that is basically the same as you would OVER-develop your 100 ASA film for 2,5 stops, which would give you a very visible grain and a high contrast. The same will happen with the RED material, it is really similar.
Don't fool yourself with the ISO setting, it is around 320 on proper daylight and 100-160 with tungsten lighting (and with this lighting a proper blue filter is preferred, just as you would do with film).
Any other ISO setting only "simulates" the "under- or over- development"

 

[Rob van Gelder]

In my testing I found a reduction in the noise in the blacks, a more even pattern of noise, similar to filmgrain with less blocking artifacts.

It is a difference, but not a major one, so don't expect wonders.
Skin colors look more natural, a bit less saturation overall, specially in the reds and purples. Easily adjusted in any color correction program.

Besides this, the RED has in my opinion under Tungsten lighting (and everything not similar to daylight) an effective ISO of 100-125.
Of course you can crank up the ISO to 640 (or more) on the camera, but that is basically the same as you would OVER-develop your 100 ASA film for 2,5 stops, which would give you a very visible grain and a high contrast. The same will happen with the RED material, it is really similar.
Don't fool yourself with the ISO setting, it is around 320 on proper daylight and 100-160 with tungsten lighting (and with this lighting a proper blue filter is preferred, just as you would do with film).
Any other ISO setting only "simulates" the "under- or over- development"

 

[hunterrichards]

I would say its a major difference; I hated the Red for its ugly fixed pattern noise at the low-end prior to build 20, but after seeing the results from the new colorometry, cleaned up blue channel, and low-end- I bought another Red again!

Now I would be comfortable shooting up to iso1000 easily, you could even push it up to and beyond iso2000 if you really wanted as long as you were going to apply some kind of noise reduction in post (neatvideo works wonders)- just use a fast lens and you will be in business. (of course I say all this as a person who appreciates a bit of texture in an image as long as its somewhat organic looking)

 

[Juan Qi An]

Well thanks for the help! We have two red one cameras maybe we can upgrade just one of them to build 20 and do some tests. hopefully the difference is as major as most people claim. the reduction in the noise in the blacks would definitely help for sure!

Anyway for the earlier tests conduction i just played around with red alert, didnt send the footage for the high end noise reduction in post. hopefully with an improvement with the build 20 and some post work we could actually get this shoot going.

 

[Florian Stadler]

Shoot build 17 and process with build 20 Redcine/Redalert. The RAW image hasn't changed it's the way things are debayered. What build 20 will give you is a representation of the new color science in your monitor outs.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I think it is a major difference too.

 

[Irri]

As Florian said, the difference is in the post processing so you can see the difference by rendering the footage you have already shot with the new version of Red Alert. Check what version of Red Alert you are using. If it's the build 20 one then you are already seeing the new colour science. If it's an older one you can compare with the new version. Either way, you shouldn't need to re-shoot your tests.