"Top 5" Directors - No Film School

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I have spoken with some "Film Students" and asked them if they would like to make a 35mm movie, I would pay for the film and supply the cameras and lights etc., they would get to direct and supply the actors, sets and locations.

Every one so far says something like "Oh.. I just a "Film Student." Well WTF for?

What the deuce? I'd be like "Right on, when can I shoot?"

 

[Dan Hudgins]

To be or not to be...

To be or not to be...

What the deuce? I'd be like "Right on, when can I shoot?"

Sent you a PM, since you said "I'd be" on the chance you meant it.

Did you see "Sin Nombre (2009)" (if not go out and rent it) I though that was a good first feature, do you think you can wrangle that level of production value?

http://festival.sundance.org/2009/film_events/films/sin_nombre/

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

From the top 10 grossing films in the American Box Office last year, only 2 of the films had directors that graduated from Film School (Catherine Hardwicke who directed Twilight and went to UCLA, and Marc Forster who directed "Quantum of Solace" and went to NYU).

It's more if you count Andrew Standon (WallE), Mark Osborne (Kung Fu Panda) Eric Darnell (Madagascar 2), all who graduated from Animation Programs.

Otherwise, Chris Nolan was English Literature (IIRC), Favreau was a college dropout who chased after a Stand-up Comedy career, Peter Berg (Hancock) was a theater arts and history major (so kind of related).

So overall, they all share a common background in telling stories, but they aren't all film students.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

I have spoken with some "Film Students" and asked them if they would like to make a 35mm movie, I would pay for the film and supply the cameras and lights etc., they would get to direct and supply the actors, sets and locations.

Every one so far says something like "Oh.. I just a "Film Student." Well WTF for?

What good does it do to be a "Film Student" who never makes a feature film and just dabbles with camcorders?

Who in their right mind would reject that offer? What "Film Students" are you possibly talking too?

I haven't even graduated yet and i'd take up that offer.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

What it takes

What it takes

Who in their right mind would reject that offer? What "Film Students" are you possibly talking too?

I haven't even graduated yet and i'd take up that offer.

Well the Bay Area is not the "film mecca" it was when American Zoetrope was started and we had 4 or 5 35mm film labs in the city...

Those days are gone, the cine slaves that work at LucasArts don't even see film any longer as far as I know...

There is a no budget low budget film group here, but my feedback from that zone amounted to "we shoot DV", when I ask them can you find 3 DVDs that show the level of production value you can "wrangel" they stop answering my emails.

The stuff we have to work with is older film equipment so it is a lot to pack it around and set up, I have not found anyone so far that wants to put the hundreds of hours of work into making it real, there is just no interest around here as far as I can tell. One guy had like a three hour film about a subject that would be maybe X rated and impossable locations to film at, and got upset when I said I was looking for 88 minutes finished since I could not afford to make something that long on a subject that was almost un-projectable, I suggested shooting it Digital rather than on film. I cannot afford three hours at a 20:1 ratio, really...

I keep thinking about the attitude that came across on the "Project Greenlight" shows that there are no people outside Hollywood with what it takes? Making movies is nuts to start with, so maybe the younger generation has gone on to other goals, or maybe just likes something like a SCARLET they can shoot with on their own?

 

[Christian Edwards]

Every one so far says something like "Oh.. I just a "Film Student." Well WTF for?

Damm straight . Ambition means nothing if you don't have product,. you gotta have product .Just ask Jim about his motorcycle handgrips
A Friend of mine once acted in a short for a work colleague who was passionate about making films ,of which he did off his own back .when he wasn't working he was making shorts. This guy ended up fundraising and networking to make a $200,000 feature called Gabriel, which did quite well. He then went on to be signed by Universal as a director now he gets payed to do what he loves and is not paying for it .

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

From the top 10 grossing films in the American Box Office last year, only 2 of the films had directors that graduated from Film School (Catherine Hardwicke who directed Twilight and went to UCLA, and Marc Forster who directed "Quantum of Solace" and went to NYU).

Very cool.

About the current DV-student deal you guys are talking about:
Perhaps it is an internet birth/adolescence related phenomenon, where not enough people understand how to read the www, forums, blogs, "articles" and such... Maybe it is because there are many blind followers not researching their leaders. In everyone defense there is a massive whirlwind of accessibility through more affordable technology which would confuse many into assuming they too can become famous and have flowers thrown at their feet... just because of a camera that they can now buy and not because of the philosophy, psychology or other wisdom they may have to share.

Sanjin has a very cool quote on his signature: "There is no point in having sharp images when you have fuzzy ideas." Jean-Luc Godard

 

[Scott Crawley]

... there is a massive whirlwind of accessibility through more affordable technology which would confuse many into assuming they too can become famous and have flowers thrown at their feet... just because of a camera that they can now buy and not because of the philosophy, psychology or other wisdom they may have to share.

I prefer to describe the phenomenon you speak of as empowering and emboldening rather than confusing. Accessibility encourages large numbers of us dreamers to believe that perhaps we could produce films worthy of a viewer's time, and dares us to do the work; give it a shot. If this accessibility were to help uncover just one Spielberg, Fellini or Welles, then who could call it a bad thing?

I am reminded of a short that I DP'd last year. It was shot in HD, and using any sort of DP was kind of new to this group. I worked to set up a fairly standard, but attractive shot. Our subject was cross lit, and the BG had some nice pools of light. It was hot as hell and I was working virtually alone, sweating my butt off. The Director and I were reviewing the monitor when I heard an extra say "Wow, that camera sure makes beautiful pictures." Needless to say I was disgusted, and certainly agree that tech doesn't make the film maker, and a camera doesn't make the cinematographer.

While I also would agree that a unique philosophy, or wisdom can make for an interesting Director, one needn't possess those things to be a great Director.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I prefer to describe the phenomenon you speak of as empowering and emboldening rather than confusing. Accessibility encourages large numbers of us dreamers to believe that perhaps we could produce films worthy of a viewer's time, and dares us to do the work; give it a shot. If this accessibility were to help uncover just one Spielberg, Fellini or Welles, then who could call it a bad thing?

Indeed. There are always two sides. Half empty and half full are one in the same.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

working with actors is the most underrated area by the youngsters.
i dont know how many of the guys would really know how to handle a perfomance problem with an actor.


its just really hard for the actor when you would say, more energy, you are angry, you think this and that when he says this.....


this just kills performance....

this is what a director does...working with actors.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I have spoken with some "Film Students" and asked them if they would like to make a 35mm movie, I would pay for the film and supply the cameras and lights etc., they would get to direct and supply the actors, sets and locations.

Every one so far says something like "Oh.. I just a "Film Student." Well WTF for?

That sounds like an incredibly generous offer. As such, I would have to expect that they are not only second guessing their own abilities, but your motives as well. Any offer that sounds too good to be true... etc. Do these people know you well?

 

[plasmasmp]

There is a no budget low budget film group here, but my feedback from that zone amounted to "we shoot DV", when I ask them can you find 3 DVDs that show the level of production value you can "wrangel" they stop answering my emails.

I can think of 5 people I went to film school with me that would kill to make a 35mm feature (myself included) that have shot 16mm, 35mm short films and just don't have the resources to extend the 7-15 minute film they did for 15-50k up to the length of 80 minutes or more.

 

[Adil Lahoulou]

interesting article and comments... Directing a film set is tantamount to running a football team. It requires a command presence, a focused point of view and a grasp of the larger picture as you toil in the depths of the details. I know many will argue that artistic vision is paramount but honestly, seeing what happens on a set I'm convinced I'd rather have a director who can "manage" the set...

In many ways the "artistic vision" part of a production happens before the shoot begins. The production portions of the film is about minimizing the damage to said vision and to deliver the days. From a producing standpoint I'd rather have a director who understands his role as a 'manager' and focus on delivering the days.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Its a lot of work

Its a lot of work

I can think of 5 people I went to film school with me that would kill to make a 35mm feature (myself included) that have shot 16mm, 35mm short films and just don't have the resources to extend the 7-15 minute film they did for 15-50k up to the length of 80 minutes or more.

Having cameras, lights, hydraulic dollies, gear heads, tripods, and other filmmaking equipment does not make a movie, as I well know. If having all that stuff made movies then every rental house would be getting academy awards right and left.

You can maybe make a black and white 35mm feature for less than $10000 if you do not pay anyone, just for the experence and pride of producing the best work you can. Color can be done also but with some more constraints. I put my "freeish" DI system out much to my Brother's protests so that any filmmaker who wants to do an uncompressed DI at up to near 8K or more can with software that runs on Free OS on low cost PC boxes. Being able to do a good uncompressed DI puts the quality of your end result more on par with the films of top studios, the cuts are clean, the grading is better for location filming than just using the printing lights, and the quality of the sound mix using more than enough tracks to ADR and Folley much of the sound give the final result that polished quality that can be lacking in low budget films.

I'm not sure I an afford to dump enough cash into a black hole to finish your friends 5 films, but with a "little" help from them it might get done.

About my motives, what would those be, I don't expect to see a penny back, for now I am interested in getting more footage to test my DI system with, and have some features to show as proof that it can be used effectively. I think most of the people I have talked to do not want to put the effort into using film equipment in the traditional way, and with the constrants on light levels required to shoot within the budget and equipment I can muster. For the most part these people have more money than I do, and could purchase a Konvas and some short ends themselves, they could build their own scanner and DIY film recorder, they could do what I have been doing and do it better if they wanted to put the years of 24/7 work into it that is required. I thought that I would have several films finished by now, but because my situation was linked to my lazy Brother who keeps "working on the script" (for 25 years now) I would like to meet someone who is not a flake, please tell me where they are I have not meet one yet, at least not in San Francisco.

The film equipment is less than 5% of the problem of making the film, what goes in front of the camera is most of the effort. That's why I was asking people if they could wrangel actors, sets, costumes, and locations.

You also get into the problem of people who think they can produce something worth looking at based on "instinct" rather than craft and insight. The wonder of films is that you can see the end result, but may not be aware of all the craft that goes into making it, just as you can hear Wagner but not understand why each note was put where it was.

To become a good filmmaker you need to understand all the crafts that go into the art of filmmaking including the dramatic arts. Where you find people who you can talk about such things on an adult level is a puzzle. I would think that most people who are at the top of their craft would not get involved in a no budget project, and those that would might, could be in the closed minded type that shun learning or cannot carry on even if you show them the way.

Its one thing to say you "want to be a filmmaker" its quite another to put the thousands of hours required into doing it. If anyone really wants to make a film I can tell them how to do so without using money as an excuse. If your idea is any good then you WILL make your money back, and if your idea is worthless than why shoot it in the first place?

I was told by one of the heads of SAG that there are many veteran actors that would work for free in no budget films (just to get some exposure), but are prevented from doing so because of the SAG rules. So that does limit one important aspect of the filmmaking process since casting is maybe 40% or more of the success of the project.

I enjoy seeing good films, and I think it would be fun to see how good of a film I could help get made, where does that show my motives being repulsive, maybe to a hack that does not want to be shown that he is doing things contrary to the masters? I am not a mind reader, so I would rather work with someone better able to deal with "people" issues as the director.

I think the simple answer is that maybe people dont find solutions (to getting their film made) because they dont want to, and when you give them a solution the are not happy to be confronted with facing the fact that they are all talk and no action.

They say all the "nuts roll to the west coast" in the tilted continent theory.

For many projects shooting Digital is better than shooting film since you can shot a higher ratio, and people jumped on me for saying that before, but its best to keep shooting until you get the performance that "sparkles" than to quit with a magazine full of bad takes. Doing it well is not walking through the paces for the hourly pay, it is getting in the can what will move the audience, anything short of that is shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

I would like to meet someone who is not a flake, please tell me where they are I have not meet one yet, at least not in San Francisco.

Maybe you need to look somewhere else, over here in Mississippi we work quick (probably because we've got nothing better to do.)

I am part of a team right now, we're wrapping up our first 16mm feature length film. We got our stuff together, got the script together, got actors together, shot it all over the last month, and now we're in the process of getting dailies back and putting it together.

 

[Craig Ryan]

I have spoken with some "Film Students" and asked them if they would like to make a 35mm movie, I would pay for the film and supply the cameras and lights etc., they would get to direct and supply the actors, sets and locations.

Every one so far says something like "Oh.. I just a "Film Student." Well WTF for?

What good does it do to be a "Film Student" who never makes a feature film and just dabbles with camcorders?

==

I wonder what percent of academy award winning filmmakers went to "Film School".

The same but what percent of highest grossing filmmakers.

==

They say "those who cannot do teach". When one looks into filmschools I think one should talk to the faculty and see how many ARE academy award winners. Just what qualifies those to teach and if they are not successul themselves what are they passing on, where does their personal knowledge and experence depart from reciting something they read in a book.

Perhaps the best "film school" is looking at the works of the masters and studing them with a hand counter and a stop watch. Getting the original scripts and comparing those to the end result, and reading books written by people who have experence, perhaps more experence that an instructor you might encounter.

Today equipment and software for doing a DI are so cheep anyone can learn by doing at little or no cost. What seems lacking is enough selif criticism, putting yourself on the same plane as the masters is not going to happen to 99.99% of those who might like to think it is easy to do because of technology, what you end up with is a misformed shadow, and imitation, like cutting bits out of anothers great work and pasting it together and saying "look what I did, it has the same words as that great work so it must be it's equal".

What made those works great was their craft and originality, and originality is not something you can be instructed in so much as needs to be consciously developed from within.

Dan are you for real?? I find it hard to believe that anyone turned you down flat... What school did you go to and offer this? Sounds like someone around these parts needs to grow a pair...especially if they already had a script written that they were proud of. If the expenses are covered, then "not having the time" doesn't seem to be an adequate excuse, because I'd quit any job if I was suddenly given the opportunity to put a film together without having to worry about most of the costs.. That seems like a dream come true to any real film student..."heres the fiilm, camera, lights, and a DI system, all on me. Get some can-do people together and make your movie."

I think if you find someone with a good idea, and then find a groupe of people who also love the idea and are willing to put up what it takes, then it can be done. But the first thing of course is always the idea. Just because someone doesn't have any ideas doesn't necessarily mean they don't have what it takes. I'd LOVE to put the effort needed on a 35mm film the old fashioned way if someone had a good script; but I don't. And that's why I'm taking screenwriting...every bit helps. Finding actors for free isn't an issue. I've had GREAT results on craiglist here as a matter of fact. You get a great script, you'll be hard pressed to NOT find people to work on the project with the offer you put up.
.


My opinion on this thread's argument is this...for the very FEW who have made it in this business without a film degree, you have to also consider how many hundreds of thousands or millions of others tried the same thing...and yet where are they? It really doesn't prove anything. Film school, or no film school. Heck, our very own Jim Jannard dropped out of USC before he started up Oakley didn't he?

I think it boils down to one's personal drive and natural ability. If you don't have one of them, you develop it over time...whether that means going to film school or something else is part of the process I think. I don't agree that one can't develop the skill near the level of someone who got it naturally...just look at a musician; there are many who were born with a gift, and then there are those who needed to learn how to do it through years of dedicated hard work, yet still managed to become master musicians. Natural ability isn't always the determining factor.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Ideas...

Ideas...

That seems like a dream come true to any real film student..."heres the fiilm, camera, lights, and a DI system, all on me. Get some can-do people together and make your movie."

Well, that's not quite the deal, if I was going to spend enough to get an 88 minute answer print for projection I would not be funding a train wreck, right!?

I would hope that what was shot could be turned into something, after all in addition to the money for the negative I would be spending a year or more doing the scanning, dust mitigation, CC, and sound ADR and Folley, as well as composing music, and doing the title design. If I'm going to go through that I would want some footage I can enjoy looking at each day. Anyway why would the other person want to shoot dreck, just to waste my money?

If you think about these films,

The Apartment (1960)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053604/

Nóz w wodzie (1962) [Knife in the Water (USA)]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056291/

Suna no onna (1964) [Woman in the Dunes (International: English title)]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058625/

Key Largo (1948)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040506/

Those were shot in black and white and something like that could be done without complex locations, and sets, as long as you could find good actors willing to work until something worthwhile resulted.

Not that you could equal any of those with no budget, but you might be able to get above,

Chan Is Missing (1982)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083728/

I spoke to Wayne Wang about working together soon after Chan Is Missing came out, I thought making a 35mm film would look better than what he got in his result. He seemed to loose interest when I did not know where the restaurant was (in Chinatown?) that he wanted to meet at. I guess I was stupid for asking him the address and cross street, I should have looked in the phone book, but thats the way life goes.

I sort of have one foot in the film school camp and one foot out. My Brother is about 4 1/2 years older than I am, so when he got into Cinematography classes I was still in High School. As soon as he got in we started checking out equipment on weekends and shooting things in 16mm since they had Eclair NPR, nagra tape recorder, sennheiser shotgun microphone, Fluid Head Tripods, and Colortran Lights, all stuff we could not afford at the time since I was around 15 and by Brother 19. I worked the camera for many of by Brothers "film school" projects and did much of the lighting. I also "hung out" in the film department with its Moviola editors and interlock projection. I knew my Brothers classmates, and how their lives have gone since with regard to some of their film projects.

I did not really need to sign up for classes since I had already mastered all the equipment they had and done many of the assignments to some extent and seen my Brothers results.

Some time later one of my Brothers friends had a meeting to talk about doing a group project with his other classmates, I could see from the meeting that I attended that they were headed for a train wreck, and told the leader that I could make a film that would amount to something with him, his immediate recoil at the thought of putting in more time himself rather than alocating responsability to others fully unable to follow through was quite a supprise to me, but I guess some people WANT to fail, don't ask me why. And a pile of money later a failure is what he ended up with. What could I do, I warned him and offered to help.

I try to do the best I can, and if I was working with someone there would need to be a process of education about various production issues and development of the script, story boards, and animatics version, so that when shooting started we could be on the same wavelength as to what the end result should look like.

I have my own ideas for my own projects if they ever get done, when working with someone else, the subject should be something of interest to both I would think. Some people seem transfixed on odd ideas that would not seem to be a draw, in that case it would be best for them to drive their own train...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I think what is most important is to get your vision worked out to the point where the sky could fall and you'd still have your bearings straight.

Casting is paramount, and to get it right you need to know your story that much. Also, if you really know your story then you should know when you found your right actors, without a doubt.

There is an honesty that fades away the more takes you shoot and the more you direct them. If you know what makes your script tick, and understand why, then you will be able to stay flexible enough to move at a pace that will help keep your cast in that real state, all while also giving you and your DP more set up time or save money.

However... when you are shooting, don't expect it to be exactly what you planned, and be happy when it is. Don't force it! Find the version of your story that lives in your cast. If you know your story then you should manage to all of that, even if the sky falls.