Hi I'm a novice where do I start!???

[jdoe]

Hi, I am looking into making making films. I would like to make films with a professional quality. I'd also like to shoot documentaries. And, I'd like to do some effects and animation like for instance at the level of Harry Potter or something.

So far I have been inquiring for the last couple of months. I figure to get a HP desktop with an i7 processor, but maybe a Mac if Final Cut Pro if it is better then the others. For software I am thinking of going with Adobe Premier Pro and after effects. I also want to get a greenscreen and chroma key. I have looked at Canon, JVC, Sony, Panasonic, and am sure there are some others out there that I am still looking to see which is the best. I definitely do not want to spend a 100 grand on a camcorder, but am thinking more 5-20k. I figured Canon is popular and has good lenses, and JVC seems to have the newest stuff out. Most cams seem to have 1/3 3CCD and I saw one with 2/3. I know a little about cmos, full hd, sd cards, lenses, ergonomics, exterior manuals controls, white light, low light quality, ect. I also know some about lighting, sound, and other tools and things.

As I was looking into those other brands I saw RED. I have a subjective feeling that it may be a very good cam. I also heard that there are large sight sensors and other pioneering qualities to it. I'm wondering if it is the best for it's price or if there are better and why. I also don't know much about the 3 different cams or the multiple lenses ect. So I heard of this forum and thought I'd check it out.

Right now I do not think I want to go to film school because I do not want to spend thousands of dollars when I could use that for equipment and plus I think I can just study independently. I am planning on going to book stores and the library and Ebay, visiting stores, calling companies, talking with a couple friends who know some of film, studying websites, inquiring in forums, and maybe get a tutor from a nearby LA film school, and just learning from doing.

So do you have any info or advice for me? Extensive comments are welcomes as well as short. I have talked of a lot of things and you can probably see where I am at so you can know what I need to know, and even the things I mentioned I only know in part. Anything would help like resources or whatever. As for this forum and in general where should I start where should I go from here? I like to study wisely, insightfully, and efficiently. I am thinking the cam to be the most important thing and so am planning on spending most of my money on it and maybe spending high or low depending on what I actually need to attain excellence THANKS. I'd really like to make some non profit films and your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

My advice is write amazing scripts and make short films which have strong character content, when you are confident you have tackled that area THEN you can move up to effects.
If you must get a cam corder get an EX1 or an EX3 this will allow you to do both dramatic work as well as shoot nice documentaries.
Red is a great camera but you may as well just rent one or find a DP who owns one as you'll get the good lenses with that as well.

Film school to me isn't so much about learning filmmaking as it is making films and practicing, if you have the contacts and friends to do this on your own by all means skip film school but going to film school can have it's advantages if you approach it the right way. After all what's the point of making a ton of films if no one watches them and gives you real critique.

For the "Level of Harry Potter effects" unless your some kind of an effects wizard I suggest you find 10 million dollars and talk to ILM.

 

[PatC]

Jdoe welcome to reduser.

I agree with craig on an ex1. Just start making films. As far as film school goes it is different for everybody. Some people get a ton out of it and some people don't. I always found that being on set was the best learning experience.

Hope that helps.

 

[DCC Erickson]

It seems obvious you're into the hardware more than the content. Hook up with the best writers, directors, and actors you can find - which can be hard when you're starting out. Don't go into hock over equipment at the get-go. It'll be obsolete long before you're done paying for it. Unless you buy a Scarlet, and they ain't out yet. No one needs C-Stands and Kinos rusting in their garage between shoots. Rent the gear, buy the computer. You only need the camera on set, but you'll probably be editing 24/7 at some point.

And don't try to do everything yourself - it'll end badly, I know (though it's good to get a taste of every aspect of filmmaking). If you want a great project, get with great people.

 

[André Bériault]

But film school is a great way to establish enduring contacts, then when good contracts come, the credit has lots of power....But as the others say...go out there and film..but trya a HD semi pro first, a Z1 or an EX whatever you could rent at B&H...Then come to RED....Good luck

 

[Peter Hodgins]

If you are in LA get involved in a professional or student/amateur film production ... just carry and hold stuff ... hang around a production ... work for free ... be an extra ... hang out and watch what is going on. Check craigslist for free labour requests.

 

[jdoe]

First of all thank you all VERY much for your input.

It seems some of you in some instances did not actually answer some of the inquiries I brought up, but more so gave advice to other things. So, let me try and clear a couple things up. Initially I understand where you are coming from on these issues.

"Film School" I do not feel I need encouragement, can find friends outside of a school, and am not thinking to be in the mainstream so I don't need many of those contacts, ect. I do understand the values of it and so forth and would like to go, but just not enough to spend 50k or something, ect...

"Scripts" I already have a ton of things going over the years.

"Harry Potter" well I hope I can at least to some degree do somethings similar with modern technological advance made more readily available to the consumer.

"Sony Cam" it seem most of you like Sony! Is there a reason for this over Canon or JVC or?

"buying or renting" that is actually a very good point you make that you will spend most of your time editing in post production and only use the cam to shoot. I will consider that more, but I am so inclined to purchase one. I wouldn't think a good hd cam would go out of date substantially that fast as many are still moving toward hd and a good cam is a good cam. Maybe though I wont get a major cam especially if I can get a 5-10k cam that is of good quality. I would like my own cam because I would like to have it to do a lot of things a lot even some more casual things and on trips ect.

"Don't do everything yourself" well I have basically a zero budget and will be using many non profit volunteers with little skill other then acting or something so I guess I will have to really pre plan and think things and keep things simple where I can.

"Volunteer at a shoot and learn" that is really great advice I will have to look into that thanks.

Once again I am definitely not the pro here and am humbly replying and am just trying to be transparent and get somewhere educationally on the matter so am seeking to delve into the truth of the matter. Thanks all so far it has been very helpful. I hope for as many more comments as I can get.

 

[jdoe]

I guess my main most specific question was where should I go to study. Where should I start on this forum? Are there good books or even text books that schools use that I could get my hands on? Or sites? Where or what is the best way to go to get some true and smart knowledge on the matter? and I guess where would RED play into this for instance how good is the cam is it the best one out there for price and quality?

 

[Alan Rosenfeld]

But film school is a great way to establish enduring contacts, then when good contracts come, the credit has lots of power....But as the others say...go out there and film..but trya a HD semi pro first, a Z1 or an EX whatever you could rent at B&H...Then come to RED....Good luck

Just to make clear, we don't rent at B&H, but we do have very good deals on open box and used equipment to get you started for a reasonable cost. The important thing is that you start making movies, shorts, whatever. The medium or equipment doesn't matter. What does matter is that you can play it back for folks that can give you guidance and advice.

In regards to film school, I learned a lot about the theory of storytelling and had classmates that are now very well known names in the industry - but I learned more technically in my first 6 months working in a motion picture lab. There is no replacement for hands on grunt work be it in professional production or post. However, there is a lot to be said for watching films and learning about the basic theories behind their creation.

good luck.

 

[DCC Erickson]

I guess my main most specific question was where should I go to study. Where should I start on this forum? Are there good books or even text books that schools use that I could get my hands on? Or sites? Where or what is the best way to go to get some true and smart knowledge on the matter? and I guess where would RED play into this for instance how good is the cam is it the best one out there for price and quality?

I find myself doing, then studying. It's possibly counter-intuitive, but I've never EVER learned as much from books as just plugging the stuff in and hitting the GO button - looking for answers when I actually have a problem to solve. RTFM? Maybe.

The other part of gettin' educated is that you may pick up a lot of "wisdom" that will plant you firmly in the middle of the status quo mainstream majority. Learn how to run the gear, but don't get bogged down in "film theory". No one in the audience cares about your technical expertise or filmmaking philosophy, they want to be entertained. And if you're not knocking yourself out for your audience, it's only a hobby.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There's something to be said for film theory.

The effects of lens length. Use of DOF. Lines of action etc. But you can pretty effectively learn all of the basics in like an hour.

The best quick summary of the important bits of film theory I've found is this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Bare-Bones-Camera-Course-Video/dp/0960371818

Then I would read:

The Writer's Journey
Poetics
Film Directing Shot by Shot
and
Directing Actors

That should pretty much cover all the education you'll receive in a film school in class.

 

[M Most]

That should pretty much cover all the education you'll receive in a film school in class.

Well, maybe all except the ability to ask questions, interact with others, gain insight through discourse with current or former industry professionals, learn about art, music, philosophy, humanities, and life, partake in projects in different capacities, thus experiencing the requirements of all departments and giving you a better understanding of how and why they all work together, and experience the operation of all types of film production equipment first hand, with instruction from people who have operated these devices for many years.

Book learning is only one - and a rather minor - part of education. The rest can't be had by staying at home, reading books, and surfing the Internet. It must be experienced. That's what real education is about.

 

[A. Bastaki]

...
http://www.amazon.com/Bare-Bones-Camera-Course-Video/dp/0960371818 (Really good book)

Then I would read:

The Writer's Journey (This is a must read, I've read this book and I also would recommend my buddy's and mentor hal ackerman's book... http://www.amazon.com/Write-Screenplays-That-Sell-Ackerman/dp/1931290520 )
Poetics (haven't read this.. but seems interesting..)
Film Directing Shot by Shot (must read)
and
Directing Actors (must read)

That should pretty much cover all the education you'll receive in a film school in class.

can't stress how right you are Gavin... these books are like the abc's of filmmaking. gotta learn your abc.

..the ability to ask questions, interact with others, gain insight through discourse with current or former industry professionals..giving you a better understanding of how and why they all work together, and experience the operation of all types of film production equipment first hand, with instruction from people who have operated these devices for many years..

Book learning is only one - and a rather minor - part of education. The rest can't be had by staying at home, reading books, and surfing the Internet. It must be experienced. That's what real education is about.

mmost - ive surveyed a lot of filmschools... if I had the time, I'd rather pay a dp/director whoever.. and have him teach me. or atleast be on their sets.. learn the craft... then go rent out eq. make a short or two and get a feel for the craft.. MAKE experienced friends.. and ask them their input on your work.. not from some class instructor.. but from the industry itself.. also ask your mentor for some job favours... and allow him to guide you where to start. even as a PA. u'll probably start scrubbing toilets.. or c-stands.. boxes.. or whatever... but you will be surprised at how much u've learned in a year by reading the books.. and being a part of the industry gaining experience... whereas the same guy in your shoes getting out of usc or nyfa.. would be fighting for a job, and be so full of theory - not knowing where to start... very very few filmmaking students make it in the industry..

filmmaking is about running, selling yourself, self-educating, self-inspiring yourself and give yourself opportunities by being in the industry from headstart. That, my friend, you will not get from a film school.

 

[jdoe]

Thanks to everyone again for input. I am considering all that is said like learn from doing, benefits of schooling, theory, ect.


Gavin & Bastaki,

so you guys think those are the best and most essential solid in depth books out there? If so I will probably buy them and chew em up! I wouldn't mind if you said a little bit about each one, but if not I can always read about them and reviews and what not which I will probably do anyways. By the way that is the kind of stuff I am talking about THANX.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

my advice is to not use the word camcorder if you wanna be legit

 

[M Most]

mmost - ive surveyed a lot of filmschools... if I had the time, I'd rather pay a dp/director whoever.. and have him teach me. or atleast be on their sets.. learn the craft... then go rent out eq. make a short or two and get a feel for the craft.. MAKE experienced friends.. and ask them their input on your work.. not from some class instructor.. but from the industry itself.. also ask your mentor for some job favours... and allow him to guide you where to start. even as a PA. u'll probably start scrubbing toilets.. or c-stands.. boxes.. or whatever... but you will be surprised at how much u've learned in a year by reading the books.. and being a part of the industry gaining experience... whereas the same guy in your shoes getting out of usc or nyfa.. would be fighting for a job, and be so full of theory - not knowing where to start... very very few filmmaking students make it in the industry..

filmmaking is about running, selling yourself, self-educating, self-inspiring yourself and give yourself opportunities by being in the industry from headstart. That, my friend, you will not get from a film school.

I disagree. Filmmaking isn't about any of those things. Those things are means to an end, the end being having a job. Filmmaking is about storytelling, with craft and with art. If you want to have a trade job, what you suggest is sufficient. You might become a very good technician and perhaps know some tricks. But if you want to be an artist, you need to study what's come before. Every director you encounter will want to relate to you in terms of references - literary, artistic, and musical. During conversation, they will almost constantly refer to prior works of art as inspirations and references, be that motion pictures, photographs, paintings, architecture, musical works, or any number of other things. As a collaborative artist, you are expected to have enough familiarity with the masters and with previous works to converse intelligently about story ideas, not to mention to have your own personal set of works that inspire you. I see a lot of people today enamored with the technology, and equally enamored with the idea that knowing that technology is a shortcut to industry and career success. And a number of them will likely go on to be successful camera assistants. But if you want to be more than that, you need to be educated. And there aren't any shortcuts for that. If you talk to technicians, they will tell you all about how to build a camera, how to adjust back focus, how to make sure the file is valid, etc., etc. But if you talk to an experienced, respected director of photography, you'll quickly discover that what they do is guided by none of those things. It's guided by an artistic vision, shared with a director. And as you spend more time with directors and directors of photography, you come to appreciate how their wealth of knowledge about things other than how to build and run a camera is what makes them true artists. Getting a job and having a career can be two different things. Doing what you suggest can sometimes help to accomplish the former. The latter takes a bit more dedication.

 

[Shawn R]

jdoe, stop double posting first. Then stop posting and read. No offence intended but there is a ton of information available here. Read, Read, Read, then ask some questions.

 

[Coco B]

Hi, I am looking into making making films. I would like to make films with a professional quality. I'd also like to shoot documentaries. And, I'd like to do some effects and animation like for instance at the level of Harry Potter or something.

So far I have been inquiring for the last couple of months. I figure to get a HP desktop with an i7 processor, but maybe a Mac if Final Cut Pro if it is better then the others. For software I am thinking of going with Adobe Premier Pro and after effects. I also want to get a greenscreen and chroma key. I have looked at Canon, JVC, Sony, Panasonic, and am sure there are some others out there that I am still looking to see which is the best. I definitely do not want to spend a 100 grand on a camcorder, but am thinking more 5-20k. I figured Canon is popular and has good lenses, and JVC seems to have the newest stuff out. Most cams seem to have 1/3 3CCD and I saw one with 2/3. I know a little about cmos, full hd, sd cards, lenses, ergonomics, exterior manuals controls, white light, low light quality, ect. I also know some about lighting, sound, and other tools and things.

As I was looking into those other brands I saw RED. I have a subjective feeling that it may be a very good cam. I also heard that there are large sight sensors and other pioneering qualities to it. I'm wondering if it is the best for it's price or if there are better and why. I also don't know much about the 3 different cams or the multiple lenses ect. So I heard of this forum and thought I'd check it out.

Right now I do not think I want to go to film school because I do not want to spend thousands of dollars when I could use that for equipment and plus I think I can just study independently. I am planning on going to book stores and the library and Ebay, visiting stores, calling companies, talking with a couple friends who know some of film, studying websites, inquiring in forums, and maybe get a tutor from a nearby LA film school, and just learning from doing.

So do you have any info or advice for me? Extensive comments are welcomes as well as short. I have talked of a lot of things and you can probably see where I am at so you can know what I need to know, and even the things I mentioned I only know in part. Anything would help like resources or whatever. As for this forum and in general where should I start where should I go from here? I like to study wisely, insightfully, and efficiently. I am thinking the cam to be the most important thing and so am planning on spending most of my money on it and maybe spending high or low depending on what I actually need to attain excellence THANKS. I'd really like to make some non profit films and your help is greatly appreciated.

WOW, I was hoping Sasha Cohen would join the REDUSER.net. I wonder what his name is going to be this time around?! Bo-Red-Uno?! :skep: Jdoe?! :skep:

Y'al were all very helpful with advise and all, but common, wake up, the guy(Jdoe) is having the biggest laugh in his life!

I agree with the selected bibliography. :leaving:

 

[Coco B]

Oh, dear! I can't stop laughing! :crying:

BoRedUno is this month's hero! :blush5:

Well done, mate! :ack2:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Book learning is only one - and a rather minor - part of education. The rest can't be had by staying at home, reading books, and surfing the Internet. It must be experienced. That's what real education is about.

No but the question at hand was "Where do I start?" A life in pursuit of art is not an answer to "Where do I start?"

Where do I go from there once I've started?

Question. Learn. Experience. Do. Fail. Try again.

Starting is always the scariest part. Start from something practical and tangible: theory. I would rather someone spend a couple of weeks on books than to be petrified and overwhelmed. Once they have the confidence of theory they can then stretch their wings.

The masters used to spend years and years mixing paints and apprenticing. Learning the most inane technical skills before even being allowed to touch the canvas.

Of course you have to get out into the world. Of course you have to expand beyond rules and technical diction. Of course you have to immerse yourself in philosophy and art to draw from in your own work. But that's your life's work. It's not a starting place imo.

In school I learned a great deal about drawing, but the emphasis was always on expression and gesture. All of which is important. But then I started personally studying anatomy and technical drawing and for me it was liberating to be able to then start from an anatomical accurate perspective and apply my own creative inspiration. I had an amazing sculpture teacher. He forced us to not just be expressive but rigorous accuracy simultaneously. I learned far more from him and he pushed his students much further than any of my other teachers in any other subject. And while our projects were largely fantastic and creative the rigorous technical foundation that we had to learn enabled us to be in tight control.

Creative control comes from technical control. The ballet dancer is an expert in control over their body. The musician must be in complete control of their instrument if they want to find expression.

You've got a life time of learning to do and grow as an artist. Start with the basics.

I wouldn't recommend going to film school before your masters. Learning the basics of film is more affordable to do outside of school on your own time. Take philosophy or English or something other than film.