Going Back to the R3D for More

[Barry Longfellow]

Hello everyone!

I wasn't able to find this among my searches in these boards, so hopefully I'm not being redundant and it's a simple solution:


What color settings should be used in RedCine when going back to the R3D files to match transcoded footage from the Log and Transfer process?


We are cutting a long form project that will output to DVD/HD Master. To make things simple, we transcoded all the source footage into Pro Res 422 HQ files with the Log and Transfer window.

This would normally be the end to the story. We'd send to Color, make some nice tweaks, then render out. However, the producer wished to 'change the focal length' of a few shots, which we all know is no huge deal when working with 4K. In fact it's pretty awesome to do so without visually degrading the image in HD space.

So I pulled a test shot into RedCine. But after rescaling the video, and exporting to Pro Res 422 HQ, I noticed a dramatic change in color. The subject's shirt changed from a saturated red to a dull orange.


Why does the transcoded files within FCP's Log and Transfer plug in look so much different than exporting from RedCine? It is clear that the footage is a much cleaner when compared to the temporary scaling we did in the motion tab within FCP (his face is more defined and crisp). However, the color is completely off, which will make matching in Color an added step.

Can someone help me out? Or refer me to a related post?

Are there specific settings that Final Cut uses in the Log and Transfer (in conforming to Pro Res 422 HQ) process that can be used in RedCine to match perfectly?

Any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated! And please let me know if I need to clarify anything..

Thank you! :smiley:

 

[Barry Longfellow]

A bunch of views.. No thoughts?

We would just like to know the best way to dig into the R3D files, change the scale/position attributes of a few clips, and then export in a way to match the Pro Res 422 HQ sequence of clips created by Final Cut's Log and Transfer.

Any ideas? Leads? Are there any other threads on here that relate to this?

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

In my opinion, Log and Transfer transcoding to ProRes is only good for offline editing, you would not really want to use that to color correct with. If you use L&T but go "Native" you can send that right to Color, but I find that buggy. I work with proxies and use Redcine to transcode very flat looking files that I then use to color correct with. This gives you much more visual information to work with.

But to answer your question, since Redcine has different ways of interpreting the color and gamma space, and Log and Transfer has a once size fits all approach, the two are not going to look alike at all, so it's apples and oranges. I don't think there is a color space/gamma space combination that will match FCP's L&T tool. Redcine is a much more powerful tool for transcoding.

If your going to stick with your L&T ProRes footage, your going to need to try and eye match with Color the shots your pulling from Redcine to what you have in your ProRes media.

 

[Barry Longfellow]

Brandon,

Thanks for your quick reply! It's good to hear a clear answer too. So I guess I'll have to decide whether to stay with L&T Pro Res for the remainder of the project, or conform through RedCine eventually.

Do you use Crimson for your onlining session? If so, does it recognize transcoded (L&T) footage to load R3D sequences within RedCine for conforming?

Thanks again!

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Brandon,

Thanks for your quick reply! It's good to hear a clear answer too. So I guess I'll have to decide whether to stay with L&T Pro Res for the remainder of the project, or conform through RedCine eventually.

Do you use Crimson for your onlining session? If so, does it recognize transcoded (L&T) footage to load R3D sequences within RedCine for conforming?

Thanks again!

Yes and yes. Crimson will recognize the metadata from L&T files provided you haven't changed the name of the .R3D file in the L&T tool. I have used crimson to online my sequence with both proxies and pro-res media, linking back to the .R3D files in Redcine.

 

[Barry Longfellow]

This is all helpful information, Brandon. Thanks.

I think my sequence may have a hitch in that plan. Exporting the XML and bringing into Crimson will not match to the original R3D files.

When going through the Log and Transfer process, I titled the shot names based on their content, such as:

"Frank MS"
"Frank WS"

Unfortunately, I realize now that the Pro Res files in the Capture Scratch folder are named differently:

"Frank MS"
"Frank MS1"
"Frank MS2"

Were you saying that these file names (of the transcoded video) have to be named the same as the original R3D files? Or do just the names of clips within FCP have to be identical?

I wish I knew this before jumping in, but the "Final Cut Studio Whitepaper" on Red's support page made L&T/Pro Res HQ sound like the perfect choice for the project..

In the end I may need to just rebuild the sequences with the proxies instead and go about it that way (through Cimson/RedCine then to Color). Things seemed to work fine here before the Log and Transfer option arrived.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Using L&T, you should not edit the names until after the clips are transcoded, then you can change the clip names or better yet, make sub-clips and re-name them. If you make sub-clips, you have to remove sub-clip limits before you export the XML.

Changing the name in the L&T tool destroys some of the metadata you need to use Crimson/Redcine.

 

[Barry Longfellow]

Okay, finally things are making sense.. Thanks for clarifying this information for me. It will certainly help with the next project.

I was under the assumption that Log & Transfer kept track of the original name within the metadata, but I was mistaken.

So renaming after ingesting the footage will keep the metadata intact. Gotcha.

Well, I learned something today. Hopefully others in this community can learn from my mistake as well. :mellow:

 

[Barry Longfellow]

Okay, it's been a week or so since starting this thread, but for anyone following I thought I'd post an update.

When exporting the final output of this project, it was apparent to me that we would have to sync our rough edits to the proxies first before we could do the final pull from the Red R3D files (with Crimson/RedCine workflow, etc).

However, upon syncing the Pro Res clips (from Log and Transfer) to the H proxies I noticed one important detail:

They are IDENTICAL.

With the mystery to what "color settings" are used in the Log and Transfer process, it seems that they just copy the frames of the proxies EXACTLY. Same contrast, saturation, everything. When deactivating the H Proxy on top of the Pro Res clip, there is absolutely no difference in color.


What does this mean in our case?


Well, in our situation, the Pro Res encoded files seem to work okay for our current workflow (a 30+ minute health DVD) and after tweaking color in Color, they look great. We were simply looking for an easy way to take advantage of the 4K image and punch in with a few takes (from a wide shot to medium shot, etc).

This is the first time ever that the F proxy has come in handy for us.

By taking the full res, 4K proxy file into our 1080p Pro Res 422 timeline, we are able to punch in (100% scale), keeping the 4K detail, and the color still matches identically.


So... rather than having to sync every single edit to proxies, export XMLs, process through Crimson, edit the XMLs (thanks to the new Slot XML tags RedCine reads now), conform through RedCine, DI back from Crimson, and send to Color from a new Final Cut Pro timeline,....

.. all we have to do is pull the F proxies into our Pro Res 422 timelines for the instances that require the punch ins and render only those clips before sending to Color.

Woo Hoo!:emote_happyhappy:

Phew.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Glad this works for you... just realize that with this workflow, your not really going back to the raw files to color correct. If you can CC your proxy looking pro-res files and get a good look, cool.

Remember you can go back to the RAW with either proxies or Pro Res media (via Crimson or Monkey) so long as you don't truncate or rename your files in the L&T tool until after your imported. I think this was the snag in your workflow that caused you to have to consider "re-syncing" (re-conform) your timelines before you go to Redcine.

Yes, proxies look the same as ProRes files, if you keep the color controls set to Native (not Tungsten, Sepia, etc...) in the L&T tool. For my taste proxies usually look pretty wacked out, and after I run my transcodes through Redcine and get that 12 bit raw file into an uncompressed 10 bit file and send to Color, that is where the magic happens.

 

[Barry Longfellow]

Thanks for your insight, Brandon!

I know the proxies aren't reeeeally taking full advantage of what the R3D's have to offer. But as a lifeboat to shore this time, it sure seems like the answer of choice.

In the future I'll be going back to the Crimson/RedCine workflow. It worked in the past for us rather well before the Log and Transfer road appeared.

Cheers! :cheers2: