Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Post Tool - EDL/Cutlist

roryhinds

roryhinds

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
2,144
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Website
www.minefilms.com
Thought I would start a new thread as this subject is pretty important on the clients excepting RED scale.

So why oh why oh why can't Jim and the crew bring us RED users a Offline to Online RED post tool.
s
When RED was first announced REDCINE was promoted to have CutList support making post a breeze. That never happened as I imagine Assimilate didn't want to loose sales on Scratch.

Now that REDCine is developed and written completely by RED why can't it have EDL support?

Seems the big missing link that producers are screaming for.
Clients want a easy way that takes a finished edit and gets to Online using the 3rd's.

Come on RED give us a tool we can use with this great camera and the footage it produces.
 
roryhinds said:
Seems the big missing link that producers are screaming for.
Clients want a easy way that takes a finished edit and gets to Online using the 3rd's.
Click to expand...

I can name at least 7 systems that do this now. Scratch, Iridas Speedgrade DI, Avid DS, Quantel iQ/Pablo, Baselight, DaVinci Resolve, Nucoda Film Cutter/Film Master, and probably at least 2 or 3 that I'm forgetting. Not to mention desktop software such as Premiere Pro CS4 and Sony Vegas, and also not to mention the Final Cut Studio combo. Clients have lots of choices as long as they don't insist on them being free, and as long as they understand that not everyone uses Final Cut Pro.

Come on RED give us a tool we can use with this great camera and the footage it produces.
Click to expand...

Red is already giving you a whole lot of tools you can use with the footage and they're giving them to you for free. The last time I looked the company was "Red Digital Cinema," not "Red Editing, Conforming, and Color Correction."
 
mmost said:
Red is already giving you a whole lot of tools you can use with the footage and they're giving them to you for free. The last time I looked the company was "Red Digital Cinema," not "Red Editing, Conforming, and Color Correction."
Click to expand...

/mumbles something about not needing them to be if they opened up the specs to their file format...

That being said... r3d from start to finish seems like the best solution for editorial.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
/mumbles something about not needing them to be if they opened up the specs to their file format...
Click to expand...

You mean like Apple opened up ProRes?

Frankly, just about everything software needs to know about a R3d file is exposed via the SDK, which is how all of the applications I already mentioned can do everything that's being requested here. So what's the problem?
 
mmost by your way of thinking RED should just give as the camera and then each one of as should develop our own software in order to be able to shoot and deliver content with it.

Scratch, Quantel, Davinci? Are you serious? Do you believe that every single RED camera is used for high budgeted jobs that can afford those solutions?

Yes, i am using Final Cut Pro on my mac and also Sony Vegas on my PC. So what? I still need to use REDCINE as my first-light solution after an edit.

RED has already developed a number of tools to help us work with the camera. The effort that went into all those tools compared to the effort needed to add a simple EDL import to REDCINE is what makes many redusers ask continuously about this feature.

You may not need it but others do.
 
mmost I'm sure you coming from a top post environment and seem to remember your a Scratch user.

3RD support is what we are all after and having EDL/Cutlist build into a dedicated RED tool from RED is not asking too much, at least I don't think so.

I guess it all comes down to who RED wants to piss off and how they have deals with.
Adding EDL support is not big deal, its been around for how many years?
Crippling the software to project other companies is crappy especially when we're wanting to work with RED files from the RED camera.

RED advertised having EDL support in REDCINE when it was first demo at NAB/IBC
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on.
 
the smaller guys will not use redcine x if no edl support is in there, right?

they will go directly fcs2 or cs4

and the big guys use the big toys, right?

so why redcine-x?
to have an alternative for ra/rr on the pc side?


with premiere you have a online workflow from start to finish, export dpx for grading.

redcine x will not have monitoring options, right?
so why use it as 1st light?

the indy guy can always export dpx files from cs4 and grade in combustion, best bang for the buck inmho

(the nvidia cx to dreamcolor - way is talked, but i dont want to be limited to the dreamcolor)

just asking, no rant here
 
Last edited:
Miltos Pilalitos said:
mmost by your way of thinking RED should just give as the camera and then each one of as should develop our own software in order to be able to shoot and deliver content with it.
Click to expand...

No, qualified third parties should do that. Like Hans did with Clipfinder (for free, BTW), Ian did with Crimson (for a very nominal cost), and Avid did on their own (included with Media Composer).

Yes, i am using Final Cut Pro on my mac and also Sony Vegas on my PC. So what? I still need to use REDCINE as my first-light solution after an edit.
Click to expand...

No, you really don't. With Final Cut, you can use Color to open up the R3d files directly and do anything you need in terms of color, a simple task if you combine FCP with Clipfinder to locate the QT proxies. With Sony Vegas, as I understand it (I don't use it) you can open up R3d files directly as well, and use the standard SDK controls - essentially the same as the controls in Red Alert - to do the same thing. It just requires a bit of file name tracking and manipulation.

You may not need it but others do.
Click to expand...

Others did, before the more extensive integration in the Final Cut suite, Vegas, and Avid. Not to mention the release of the SDK which enabled essentially any software developer to do the same thing. They don't any more.
 
missing EDL support is the reason for me to never use REDcine.
It was a long way for other companies to include the SDK and yes, they did. But Mike, you didn't mention that RED is the only format that brought the companies that far, an open standard or a pull-list to generate DPX' would have been much more easy - from the very beginning.
How many hours have I spent last year to tell Pros who have not been so far as you, how this painful process had to be handled.

btw: am still waiting for my 'real name'
 
mmost said:
Others did, before the more extensive integration in the Final Cut suite, Vegas, and Avid. Not to mention the release of the SDK which enabled essentially any software developer to do the same thing. They don't any more.
Click to expand...

So, if Redcine is so useless then why is RED loosing their time on it?
 
roryhinds said:
I guess it all comes down to who RED wants to piss off and how they have deals with.
Adding EDL support is not big deal, its been around for how many years?
Crippling the software to project other companies is crappy especially when we're wanting to work with RED files from the RED camera.

RED advertised having EDL support in REDCINE when it was first demo at NAB/IBC
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. They clearly recognized over time that doing that was not as simple as it seemed, as Ian Bloom will attest to. Like any smaller company, Red had limited resources in the software area, and needed to do a lot of other things. Talking about conspiracy theories related to "protecting other companies" or "crippling the software," is a bit silly. Red provided the tools for doing any of these things to any and all developers who wanted them when they released the SDK - for free, I might add. As for advertising EDL support in Redcine way back when, well...."specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it."
 
There is just too much hop skipping, and its pretty clear that the missing link is EDL.
I'm not asking for a fully blown colour corrector finishing tool from RED for free.

No way, all I'm asking for is a tool to do Onelight correction, redcode settings and render output - to be able to edit the rendered ProRes files as the offline then take the EDL into R-X and setup the OneLight look and render settings and output.

Then take to Color, Lustre etc for final finishing.
Without RedRocket editing with 3rd files directly is not usable and for the edit working with ProRes renders works really well and you supply dailies very easy.

RED weakest link is the Offline - Online stage.
If REDCine did what it was said to do in the first place things would be happy days.
This will always hold RED back IMO and Jim could sort this out by bringing out a RED dedicated tool that works 100% with the camera.

How about a RED Rocket + RedCineX with EDL support for a reasonable price?
Maybe even team up with Apple and bring out the X-Station post supremo tool
 
Mike surely RED can just purchase a EDL engine from a coder, or better yet just hire someone to write the thing while they concentrate on design and manufacturing.

As for iBoom and Crimson, well I bet he spent a lot of time on Crimson coming as an outsider to RED and having to work with what was there.

I'm sure there are many coders out there that could work with RED to have full EDL support implemented into R-X so you can take your Avid, FCP, Vegas, Smoke, Premier... EDL and get a online rendered out so you can take it onto further finishing.

I'm interested... why do you think this is too much to ask?
 
augenmensch aka therock said:
...you didn't mention that RED is the only format that brought the companies that far, an open standard or a pull-list to generate DPX' would have been much more easy - from the very beginning.
How many hours have I spent last year to tell Pros who have not been so far as you, how this painful process had to be handled.
Click to expand...

An open standard would have ceded the control Red has over the format, severely limiting the ability to evolve the format and still maintain backwards compatibility. R3D is Red's intellectual property. They have good reasons for keeping it proprietary and closed, particularly at this early stage of the company's development. Eventually opening up the format may be practical for them, and my guess is that at some point in the future, they might go that route (just as Avid did with DNxHD). But for the moment, I understand their reasons.

As for explaining the intricacies of the process, all I can say is all of this is pretty new. It takes time for new technologies, concepts, and support processes to be widely understood, streamlined, and widely adopted. An EDL for Redcine would not have changed the world, regardless of how much some people here seem to think it would. There would still be a lot of confusion about how to do things, especially with a format like Red's that allows a lot of different approaches. Besides, for many, many users, a second file transcode isn't part of the picture. As a matter of fact, for many here - including some who have posted in this very thread - it's something of a waste of time, especially if the only delivery is either video, Quicktime files, or web streaming. People talk about getting "ultimate" quality even when they have no need for it. Most of them seem to be blissfully unaware that even some of the highest level professional projects - like some network and cable television series, for instance - don't bother to go back to the R3d files. If it's good enough for them (and judging by the positive comments regarding some of these shows here, it clearly is), why is it not good enough for someone doing a small personal project to go on a website?
 
Last edited:
i would love to see mikes face when red would sell

redrocket+r-x with edl and secondarys for 6500 USD....hehe...just joking

....


mike, serious question, do you believe the software only grading tools will hold their price over the next 5 years or will get cheaper ?

i am not talking of the hardware/software combos
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top