Scarlet post and complexity - the white elephant?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I convinced my Dad to step out of his comfort zone and shoot RAW instead of JPEG. He's shot film all his life so digital isn't really his cup of tea but once he got Lightroom it took him almost no time at all to figure out how it worked and that you can work directly on the image without making any permanant changes. Now he wouldn't have it any other way.

I think RAW video will be the same way. It sounds scary but it really isn't. You can open your video. You can grade your video. But you can later change it.

The people who have difficult workflows are people trying to use software which doesn't support R3D Natively. Such as the r3d -> DPX -> Smoke workflow. But if you're running Avid MC or Smoke then you're competant enough to deal with a more difficult workflow.

You know what IS really confusing. So confusing that to this day I still get it wrong a majority of the time:

23.98 fps vs 24fps

24p vs 24pa vs 24f vs 24p....

1.2 pixel aspect ratio vs 0.7 pixel aspect ratio vs ....

3:2 pulldown vs 3:1:2 pulldown vs 1:1,000:39209343 pulldown.

Lower vs upper fields.

Video is NOT easy. It's a hundred different hacks which vary wildly from camera to camera... and even sometimes within the same camera "Did I shoot this at 24p or 24pa?"

By comparison a data based workflow is so much easiser. It's a framerate (embedded). And it's a resolution. That's all.

 

[Felix K.]

Finally, a thread about me

Finally, a thread about me

With Ansons post in mind, I think I am one of the kind of people he was thinking of. I am an amateur. I shot my first documentary on an touristy canon camcorder. For my first short film I bustet my a.. for a year, selling "technical wear outfits" for runners (while still in college), to be able to buy a Canon XL2 (Yes everything still SD down here :001_tongue: ). This was a video workflow in it's truest form. We hooked up a monitor to the cam while shooting and played around with lighting, framing etc until we liked what we saw on the monitor. Post with DV-Material is hopeless as we all now, at least Color Grading or playing around with curves. Well at least one is not as flexible as with other formats. By the way, I bought my XL2 in 2006. (Back then I had already heard about RED and was excited about what I had heard.)
So as an amateur I am not afraid of what ever workflow is necessary concerning a Scarlet. Yes, our first attempts of post-pro might not result in a professional look. But the 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th might. Maybe even because of a forum like this one, where we might find the courage to ask one of the pro's how do they do work in post exactly.
And I'd like to say that I quite differ from the soccer-mom who only wants to get what she sees on the display. I'm not sure if she is the typical Scarlet-Buyer or if that is a market RED is aiming at (can't really imagine as long as people buy DVD-Camcorders), but even if they do, they will find ways to simplify the workflow for beginners.
Just my 2c.

P.S.: Anybody interested to hear about that one time, in film camp, where we build a air-wheel dolly for 100 bucks? :lurk5:

 

[Felix K.]

Agreed!

Agreed!

You know what IS really confusing. So confusing that to this day I still get it wrong a majority of the time:

23.98 fps vs 24fps

24p vs 24pa vs 24f vs 24p....

1.2 pixel aspect ratio vs 0.7 pixel aspect ratio vs ....

3:2 pulldown vs 3:1:2 pulldown vs 1:1,000:39209343 pulldown.

Lower vs upper fields.

Video is NOT easy. It's a hundred different hacks which vary wildly from camera to camera... and even sometimes within the same camera "Did I shoot this at 24p or 24pa?"

Exactly! What I had to learn since I started shooting video...

 

[Steven Caesare]

The biggest obstacle I think will be the amount of storage space required to handle the file sizes.

I dunno... a 3K Scarlet is pushing only slightly more than half the pixels as a 4K REDOne. While we don't know the datarates for sure any more (the RedCode 42 is not puported to be an actualy datarate), that could easily translate in to 20 minutes on a 16GB flash card, or 40 mins on a 32GB card.

If it is a substantially lesser datarate, it also may be easier to find flash cards fast enough (and perhaps cheaper) that can be qualifed to work with it.

 

[Peter Hodgins]

Well, it's the RED workflow, or shooting 35mm film.
For me, it's not a question of whether digital is complex or not, the digital workflow, no matter how complex, is the only option.
Obviously, as the price comes down, some will get in, then realize they'd rather do something else. But there will be many newcomers to moviemaking and the net result is going to be a quantum leap in movie production. I think the HVX crowd will make the jump to R3D with a high success rate.

 

[David Ergas]

ABOUT FCS3??? When is it coming out? They didn't end up announcing it at the Apple show did they?

I'm figuring FCP will be made to use as practically as possible with Scarlet to get the best possible results. ANY THOUGHTS????

 

[DDahlquist]

spend 10 hours in post for every 10 minutes we shoot (ok, maybe its even more). Plenty of Scarlet buyers can, will or have. But many, or most, don't fit that description.

A 1 to 1 ratio is common in post. I have used that ratio for decades CMX to NLE.
In real life that is doing pretty good.

Yes Scarlet will attract a lot of young inexperienced people who want to shoot and tell there stores and this is good. Yes they will make a lot of mistakes and they will learn from them and move on and this is good. They will find that " Fix it in post " Is a bad idea and shoot it the way you want it to look will always save you time in post.

Not all of these young Directors will be able to afford the systems to post the footage they shoot.
Most of us could not when we started that is were CO-OPS come in and several people pitch in and buy what one could not and this is good. This will teach young Directors to work together with other creative people.
So don't sell these kids short I think they will amaze us all.

Dave.

 

[David Swan]

I'm in Felix's camp, except I have an HVX. I can edit DVCPro HD on my dual-core laptop with an eSATA drive, but to edit Scarlet, even the 2/3" (Which will push my budget) I'd have to cough up for some serious hardware, and I'm not sure if people in teh US realise just how expensive computers are over here :emote_headwall:
But as for Raw? Heck I do all my digital photography in Raw, I wouldn't use anything else so that of itself doesn't scare me. Mind you Avid isn't the most transparent NLE for .r3d workflow (I have MC3), I think they assume you're going to conform on a DS Nitris...yeah right, something that costs as much as I paid for my house:emote_head_explode:
David

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Film like workflow.

Film like workflow.

My workflow is not much more complex than negative cutting in 16mm, probably easer and cleaner since I wrote it to avoid mag-film and glue.

My workflow moves forward, it does not involve going back to the R3D files, you just convert the parts you want to use in REDCINE from R3D to TIF and then use the TIF frames as you would film scan frames, then you make the reduced size frames after grading to make Blu-ray, DVD, uncompressed AVI, or filmout on the DIY film recorder or the size needed for some other film recorder (or for making DCI files).

The end quality of the result will be better than working with Super 16mm film in many if not most respects because there will not be all the dust and scratches you get when doing your own negative cutting. Also the digital audio will be free of pops and clicks and hum and other problems that you get working with Mag-film.

Also my system does not require tape, glue, and cores so the costs can be lower. People who wish to make feature films using Scarlet can email me with questions about my system's commands and I do not charge a licence fee now, so they can run it on many computers at once to work faster. I have an EXTRACT command now, so you can load several takes at once and that way avoid having to sync the audio for each shot, EXTRACT extracts the range of audio and image frames together to a new shot folder for you, saving time for people who are used to a more video style of editing. FreeDOS can be used for the many computers so that you do not have a Windows (tm) licence fee on those computers (and you might get a higher CPU usage since Windows (tm) does not give 100% CPU to the programs), they are just running in batch mode so the OS does not change the use of the programs.

 

[Troy Smith]

With the new color science improvements in REC709 accuracy and a REDCODE RGB option, there should be a work flow process that essentially matches normal video camera work flows. White balance for shooting and post using normal video production tools.

Yea, right now if you shoot redspace/redspace, open your clips in premiere, it's as easy or easier then a regular video workflow.

If premiere is to hard for a soccer mom or newb, then scarlet is not for that person, simple as that.

 

[TheDL]

I say let the prosumer folks have at it... even when these cameras are looking their worst, its far superior to VHS-C!

Since we're talking about raw editing... I did a few test with adobe camera raw on my HVX... since you can now manipulate JPG and TIFF images... the results were great, the time it took to export TIFF sequences, grade it, batch process it, then rebuild it into a quicktime file was not. It would be sweet to see them put something like camera raw together for motion images, it would be great for the photographer lot, since its a familiar interface.

Someone at Adobe, do it!

 

[ScottyC]

I do not own a red one or work with RAW other than my Canon 5D Mark II so I am speaking only from reading here frequently on RedUser. Shooting RAW is a wonderful option so that you can change White Balance and really play with the color in post to get exactly what you want. This is a process that may be overly complicated for the proverbial "soccer mom". Red is an exceptionally bright group of people, and although it has not been mentioned to my knowledge, I would not be surprised if they did not offer "Looks" either in camera or in a post process that would automatically apply a finished look to your footage for the inexperienced so that they don't have to work with RAW. If they haven't, I really think a camera funtion or simple application that could bake in a "Look" to your RAW footage would bridge the gap so that both professionals and "soccer moms" alike would both be able to work effectively with Scarlet.

I think you make a wonderful point about the application of "looks" to the footage. I know some consumer level cameras employ this method and some cameras can even go back and change the "look" that was applied (for example, B&W could be changed to a Sepia or a Vivid look without having to re-shoot or spend time in color grading programs). Some of these cameras also supply a simple program that can change the "look" on the computer. These cameras are, of course, file based and not tape based. In case you want to know, I am referencing an early HD consumer camera, JVC's Everio GZ-HD7U (Don't judge too much, I had to start playing with HD footage somehow and this was the cheapest way).

But please don't get me wrong, I feel that Scarlet is truly meant for the independent filmmaker with a small budget who knows more about what they are doing than the average soccer-mom. But I think just adding the ability to apply a "look" to the RAW footage is something that would make this camera much more desirable to people who are used to cameras like the HVX that bake in the "look" to the footage without driving away the pro's who want/need the better flexibility of the RAW footage for professional color grading.

Jim and team, would this be too much to ask of the cameras processor? I know you can make some adjustments on the RED cameras now to get a better image (in the monitor) while retaining the RAW information, but would it be too hard on the processor to have some basic non-destructive "looks" stored in-camera and applied to the footage. Some "looks" that can also be changed/removed/tweaked in a post program such as REDCINE?

 

[Stuart English]

LOOK files

LOOK files

Jim and team, would this be too much to ask of the cameras processor? I know you can make some adjustments on the RED cameras now to get a better image (in the monitor) while retaining the RAW information, but would it be too hard on the processor to have some basic non-destructive "looks" stored in-camera and applied to the footage. Some "looks" that can also be changed/removed/tweaked in a post program such as REDCINE?

Yup that is exactly the way the RED ONE works right now.. create and save a LOOK file (.RLK) and save to the SD Card.

.. the difference what is being requested is LOOK files held in camera memory and / or a camera .RLK file export from RED Alert! etc.

 

[Rick Presas]

I feel that Scarlet is truly meant for the independent filmmaker with a small budget who knows more about what they are doing than the average soccer-mom

Agreed. The Scarlet (IMHO) looks like its meant for independent filmmakers currently using cameras like Panasonics HVX/HPX or Cannons XHA1. The price point and everything i can tell about the features seem to comfirm this (Soccermoms generally don't need variable frame rates up to 150fps bursts or time lapse capabilites.)

At under $4,000, Scarlets 8x fixed zoom "kit", if it has decent glass (i'm sure it will), a card writer, a monitoring system of some kind, a basic audio setup, and a power source will be a powerhouse in the indie film world the way the XL1, DVX, and HVX have been before it.

It should be noted that I am a member of that exact demogrpahic. Not too far removed from film school, have half a dozen short films under my belt, and am ready to try something new for my next project. To say I'm excited about the Scarlet is a sad sad understatement.


*EDIT*
Back to the main point of this thread. Once all the NLE companies catch up to RED (many already have) post production using the Scarlets 3k footage should be pretty effortless provided you have adequeate disk space and ram. There will always be new software to learn, and if my career has taught me anything its that the "young'ins" will usually be a step AHEAD of us old folks.

 

[Henry Cooksey]

So if a young aspiring not too serious filmmaker ...

I've been telling those young athletes and aspiring filmmakers - buy a used EX1, FCS, read these books, and go start shooting and figuring out the process. Scarlet will only be better for you if you are willing to get very serious about learning a LOT about a LOT of things you never knew existed. But maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be.

That's the thing, young filmmakers are the ones most likely to get out and learn everything they can, about the processes and just how to accommodate them. I did the same with still photography, and can't wait to try my hand with moving images, but I know that unless I put in the time in post, I'm not going to get anything that looks remotely like the posts from pros on these forums. But where there is a learning curve and it is accessible, you can be sure that the young will embrace it. You only have to look at how most young/upcoming bands can now record much of their own material (the Kaiser Chiefs mixed their debut album, which reached number 2 in the UK album charts, in their own homes, themselves, rather than with an experienced technician). Where there is a will to succeed and find out how an area works, there will be young people who try their hardest and do end up succeeding.