Scarlet post and complexity - the white elephant?

[Anson Fogel]

OK, here goes -

A large portion of the scarlet demand appears to be coming from people with little experience in the world of more demanding digital post production, beyond basic FCP or still post tools. There is little mention of new, simple post tools/codecs/plugins for Scarlet's version of RC RAW. So one assumes that Scarlet buyers will need to deal with post using the (likely better) post tools available when it ships. Give the buyer profile, I simply don't see how many or even most buyers will be happy with their product/be able to achieve the results they are accustomed to with baked video files from an HVX, DSLR, etc. - I just can't make sense of it.

Tens of thousands of hours of Scarlet-related discussion on RedUser and the wider web, and almost no discussion of post.

This discussion is complex, so here's some further thought and info:

First, I am an R1 owner and came to the R1 fairly well versed in post. But getting the results from an R1 that we expect as buyers, as we all know, is seriously complex, demanding a lot from hardware, software and human input. We use Mac's, FCP, Red Tools, Clipfinder, Color, etc etc - so we're not saying you need Scratch or a Post House, but navigating from all the in-camera options, nailing exposure, through initial grading, just to get a file that can be edited or posted even just tot he web and look great - look like RED - is non trivial. Worth it, and we RedUsers - the 5,000-10,000 of us - do it every day.

Second, the buyer profile - experience strongly suggests that the "mean" buyer - not the pro buyer - will have had experience with FCP or Photoshop - and will have logged in footage and edited it, etc - but will have had little experience with the kind of complexity we're dealing with on R1 or other pro digital or film instruments. We film a lot of action sports, and a lot of the young athletes also shoot a lot of their own adventures with HVX's, etc - and on every shoot, I hear "hey - is that a Scarlet? Sweet. I'm buying one" - to which I tell them, not yet, they ask "How do you like it? I've got an XXXX and FCP and made a film about XXX" - and I don't even know how to begin.

This is not an elitist post, please do not misinterpret. The world will be a more interesting place when true 35mm quality moving images can be delivered to various screens by those with very limited financial resources. And that is part of the Scarlet promise. But how? The camera is as it turns out a portion of the equation.

So if a young aspiring not too serious filmmaker has, let's say, been shooting an XL or HVX (if they are lucky) or some other prosumer camera, he/she's been editing in FCP, exporting to a web format or tape and/or buning a DVD in DVD Studio. They are getting the kinds of results that, well, you'd expect. They are expecting that Scarlet will give them film quality images, the kind of images they see on RedUser posts or on professional shoots And the camera will have that ability. But the current RED, Apple, Adobe post tools - the tools these buyers have and will use - combined with the new world of raw, the in camera options, the exposure game - will be sorely disappointing and/or terribly frustrating. Scarlet images will initially look like higher res HVX images unless the process is learned, and in many cases, in the current scenario, it won't get learned well at all.

Obviously none of this applies to people of any age or avocation who are very very serious about dedicating the time and energy to figuring it all out or who already have. That's me - but I'm getting an EpicX ASAP and already shoot all the time with R1 - and spend 10 hours in post for every 10 minutes we shoot (ok, maybe its even more). Plenty of Scarlet buyers can, will or have. But many, or most, don't fit that description.

I've been telling those young athletes and aspiring filmmakers - buy a used EX1, FCS, read these books, and go start shooting and figuring out the process. Scarlet will only be better for you if you are willing to get very serious about learning a LOT about a LOT of things you never knew existed. But maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be.

So, is there some highly polished, packaged combination of new post tools, in camera automation/simplification and prosumer friendly User Interfaces coming with Scarlet?

Let the flames begin.

 

[Paul Watt]

I know a pretty big hunk of people (me included) that are still shooting a lot of S16mm, and converting to Prores 422 or Cineform will be looking at Epics and Scarlets. We're also renting a variety of rigs, including R1s, pretty frequently. That's who I was thinking would be one of the bigger blocks of consumers.

Also, the workflow isn't rocket science. It's not iMovie, but if you can follow instructions you can do reasonably ok. Keen kids will learn fast on cobbled together editing machines, and will know what they're doing surprisingly fast. I've seen it before, and now we'll see it more for sure. The results might not immediately be so polished or have the consistency that heavily posted material would have, but hi res HVX images with better dynamic range will be all that most of the prosumer market will be looking for, I think. Also, who cares, since volume drives down price and makes it more affordable and better for everyone.

 

[Anson Fogel]

Perhaps. But...no.

Perhaps. But...no.

Shooting s16 already puts you in the pro category, just dealing exposure and the discpline that celluloid brings, as well as your brief comments about post are reavealing your own capability. Its not rocket science, but its far more tha ingesting DV into final cut. I imagine you are correct, and lot of people like you will buy Scarlet - if/when it ships. But this post is about everyone else.

SOME kids will figure it out. But I think a signficant portion of buyers will find themselves deeply challenged, frustrated, unhappy. They can't afford RedRocket. Rendering to ProRes alone is pretty time consuming on big fast mac pros. And the tools to do so are not super solid, easy to use - many of the tools don't have manuals, much less widely available classes, how to books, etc. Also, the average "I'm waiting for Scarlet" buyer I do think expects more than just higher res HVX footage - which will still look distinctly like prosumer video. I think they expect a lot more than that. And I'm saying that there is a lack of understanding in that buyer of the time it takes to get good results, and the landscape of software and hardware tools needed.

So your answer to the final question in the post is....no. I claim that's an elephant in the room. And he's gonna do some damage.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I remember there was a lot of talk of new REDOne apocalypse when it came to focusing 35mm and working in post. That there would be a ton of used REDOnes flooding the market as quickly as they they were purchased. It never really happened. People figured it out.

The people who don't have the stomach for working out a post solution tend to be the same sort of people who would be confused by any post production workflow. So I think their general ignorance will conceal the fact that it's more difficult than normal.

And if they're caught off guard by the difficulty they'll just brag about how long it takes their footage to render. "My camera is so pro that it takes 30 hours to render a TV Spot!"

 

[Tim Sutherland]

I think this is where the REDCODE RGB comes in. I hope that turns out to be a great option that, while not as flexible as RAW, gives the quick-turnaround type and uncomplicated post-workflow type customers a great option, with the chance to 'grow' into a RAW workflow when appropriate.

This is not to say that Scarlet and REDCODE RGB will make the camera automatically look like film, even 16mm. That look a lot of times comes from skill in the post end of things. But if someone is expecting a camera on it's own to deliver a film look, I think that may be their first mistake. Even though the Scarlet is priced for the masses, it doesn't mean all those masses are capable of producing as good of a product as the camera is capable of. I can see there being some disappointment, but I think many people would be quite happy with the simplified (I assume) REDCODE RGB workflow.

Tim

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Things are changing so fast. RED may now be one of the easiest cameras to edit and post with. Anyone who disagrees hasn't used the latest version of Adobe Premiere CS4 or Sony's Vegas 9.

In Premiere you browse to the .RDM folder and bam there are all your R3Ds listed in a row. Simply drag the R3D onto the timeline and start editing. If you are on a laptop you can right click on the footage and select a lower resolution down to 1/16th. Even a slow computer can play the RAW footage back at this res. If you want to check if a shot is really sharp or not just right click again and select full resolution and you are back to looking at 4k. If you want to change the RAW file settings select "source settings" and it gives you the same controls you have in REDALERT.

When you are finished editing just render to a quicktime, WMV, uncompressed or whatever.

My jaw dropped when I first tried all this. It really is as easy as that. No transcoding, no glue tools, no nothin'.

 

[billyboy14]

Interesting thread. It's the one that finally got me to stop lurking and actually register, so hello to all. I've been following the development of Scarlet et al for quite some time. As a professional photographer as well as being a video graphics pro for 15 years or so, this issue was my one big concern. I shoot and edit video for clients and for use in animated backgrounds and effects occasionally. I'm salivating over the possibilities that an affordable dsmc sytem will bring. To put the learning curve in perspective at least from my end is the kind of process I went through going from 35mm and medium format film to digital capture. I started out shooting jpeg and post processing to the best of my abilities. I got some great stuff and was making my living with the new technology. As my understanding of the medium and its capabilities grew, I made the foray into RAW and it opened a new world of productivity. I'm hoping that REDCODE RGB will allow me and other future Scarlet owners to follow a similar path; learn what I can while being limited somewhat in flexibility and then gradually move into a RAW motion workflow.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I can see there being some disappointment, but I think many people would be quite happy with the simplified (I assume) REDCODE RGB workflow.

Tim

What will be simpler with RGB over RAW using Vegas or Premiere?

 

[Casey Green]

Perhaps RED will release other tools similar to REDCINE and RED Alert!, but geared more towards the prosumer video market and stills market.

I can't imagine them not releasing some image management software for the DSMC line. I think it would be great if they provided a software suite just for RED stills management and processing.

Also, I would think they would update the SDK for the DSMC Still format, in order to get apps like Photoshop and Aperture on board.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If RAW is more complicated than RGB then the software developers are doing something wrong.

RAW should be completely transparent to the user. The only difference between RGB and RAW should be more options to tweak.

Shooting in YUV isn't really something you have to think about. Similarly RAW -> RGB should be equally invisible.

The only difference I see between a HDV and a redcode workflow is a longer final render.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

If RAW is more complicated than RGB then the software developers are doing something wrong.

Totally agree. Which is why Adobe deserves such high praise for making the REDCODE RAW/Premiere workflow absolutely seamless. I haven't tried Vegas 9 personally but I hear it is just as simple.

 

[WILLIAM SPENCE]

I do not own a red one or work with RAW other than my Canon 5D Mark II so I am speaking only from reading here frequently on RedUser. Shooting RAW is a wonderful option so that you can change White Balance and really play with the color in post to get exactly what you want. This is a process that may be overly complicated for the proverbial "soccer mom". Red is an exceptionally bright group of people, and although it has not been mentioned to my knowledge, I would not be surprised if they did not offer "Looks" either in camera or in a post process that would automatically apply a finished look to your footage for the inexperienced so that they don't have to work with RAW. If they haven't, I really think a camera funtion or simple application that could bake in a "Look" to your RAW footage would bridge the gap so that both professionals and "soccer moms" alike would both be able to work effectively with Scarlet.

 

[Chris Clogg]

This is an interesting post... I agree a lot with the OP. Myself, I've been shooting on an HD-consumer camera for almost 2 years... and in a way it's forced me to become a very strong editor/post-effect driven person to make shots more attractive. I also have a computer science background, so that may influence it a bit... but anyway, I really like this post (not a pun)... as a low-end scarlet is looking quite good as the next option for me. It's great to read what your R1 process is... it actually makes the scarlet more enticing lol... but for maybe less technically-inclined people, you do bring up a good point. However, I think that Red is probably aware of the demographics for each camera price-point... and maybe has tailored the lower-end cameras to be simpler? I really can't say... we'll find out.

 

[Troy Smith]

The cheapest scarlet is going to be $3750 fixed lense.

I cannot see anyone buying that at that price, and thinking there going to be editing in windows movie maker or something, at minimal it would be adobe premiere, which is so simple to use now, just drag r3d file onto timeline and your away, as easy as 123.

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

Hi, thanks for this easy explenation, but you wrote

Things are changing so fast.... Anyone who disagrees hasn't used the latest version of Adobe Premiere CS4 or Sony's Vegas 9.
My jaw dropped when I first tried all this. It really is as easy as that. No transcoding, no glue tools, no nothin'.

But I'm using FCP (upgrading to FCS 3 if it come out). Can I do the same with FCP on my MacBook Pro ? And if YES, where can I find some RAW material so I can start testing...

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

The cheapest scarlet is going to be $3750 fixed lense.

I cannot see anyone buying that at that price, and thinking there going to be editing in windows movie maker or something, at minimal it would be adobe premiere, which is so simple to use now, just drag r3d file onto timeline and your away, as easy as 123.

You must have missed the whole "soccer mom" discussion. Scarlet was originally envisioned as a primarily pro camera that would nonetheless appeal to a much larger market than did Red One, including soccer moms (and dads) -- in other words, well-heeled, serious hobbyists. Red's Ted Schilowitz intimated that Scarlet would have a workflow that, while similar to Red One's, would enable decent results with its default settings but would also allow more advanced users to drill down and achieve the same results as with the One's workflow.

 

[David Rasberry]

With the new color science improvements in REC709 accuracy and a REDCODE RGB option, there should be a work flow process that essentially matches normal video camera work flows. White balance for shooting and post using normal video production tools.

 

[Bing Bailey]

I don't see all the fuss. people will do and discover as they always have. I wouldn't worry about scarlet. it'll iron itself out.

 

[David Rasberry]

The biggest obstacle I think will be the amount of storage space required to handle the file sizes.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I didn't realize there would be that many amateurs buying the camera. For me, we use HVX200s, but I don't edit for one, I hire professionals to do that, so it's of no concern (it just means I find an editor, or my editor learns, who knows how to work with this workflow). Also this computer was designed for use with a much better camera than the HVX200. I had it made to use with a RED One, but just never decided to pull the trigger on one. Sure we have CS3, Final Cut Studio, and a variety of other professional applications, but aside from that we have a KONA 3 card, a CalDigit RAID, a few monitors, tons of back-up hard drives, 10 gigs of RAM, etc. It's loaded and ready for a better camera...