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Wildlife feature in Africa - 3K, and other questions

mike holding

mike holding

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Hi all,

I have been diligently prowling this forum for a year, and should first compliment everyone on what is an outstanding source of information. This is my first post here, so I apologise in advance if the mixed and multiple questions below have been answered before, but rest assured I have searched!

I am a wildlife cinematographer with 25 years experience – recent work you might recognise was as a major contributor on “Planet Earth” and “Earth-the movie” (Disney). I’m about to embark on a wildlife feature film for cinema release as Director and DoP. The film will be shot entirely on location in the wilds of Africa – hot, dusty conditions, working mostly off the back of a 4x4 vehicle. Everything will be put through DI and back to 35mm.
Here are my questions and concerns:

Shooting on Red One with 35mm lens focal lengths will be very restrictive to our style of shooting, where much is normally done on extreme telephotos’. (ie usually HJ 40x14, HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras). I thought a workable compromise would be to work at 3K, adding (am I correct?) about 30% to the “length” of standard 35mm lenses while keeping the advantages of slow motion capability.

If the above 3K option is a workable compromise, then questions are:

1) Does anyone have experience shooting in 3K and going through DI back to film-out for theatrical release?
2) What is the “real world” resolution of RedOne when windowed at 3K?
3) I have read here that there may be problems with the Quicktime proxies for FCP when shooting at 3K – can anyone shed light on this?
4) Will the Red withstand continuous use in temperatures of 45 degrees C ?
5) Is it possible to keep the camera powered for long periods of time? Ie – hot swapping to keep the camera booted, or heavy duty 12v power supplies that last a few hours?
6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?
7) Any other suggestions/solutions for this style of shooting?

Thanks

Mike Holding (yet to take delivery of Red 4547)
 
mike holding said:
5) Is it possible to keep the camera powered for long periods of time? Ie – hot swapping to keep the camera booted, or heavy duty 12v power supplies that last a few hours?
6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?
Click to expand...

Although not shooting african fauna (I have embarked on a golden eagle scheme myself), I've had to face some of the problems above.

Yes, you can keep the camera powered for hours : many ways to do that, including marine batteries (topic covered some place on that board). Hot swapping is possible too with a dedicated battery plate (see forum). 8-10 red bricks or equivalent will power the camera for circa one full day, and shooting from a car should not make it too much of a load (not my case :-(). You might have to shade your red, depending the sample. However, the overheating issue seems to have been adressed.

As for lenses for difficult, shy/distant subjects, I'm feeling comfortable with a 300-800 sigma, f:5.6. Huge and heavy, but very easy to balance/operate with the red cradle, and fantastically sharp. It's likely african heat shimmer won't make any bigger lens practical, anyway. Hope that helps
 
Thanks,

I have a big battery rig in the vehicle that should be fine then - about 300 amp/hours. Just wondered if Red was "fussy" about its power supply. I think I may have seen the hot swap plate - I'll look here again.

I have not had the opportunity to try the Sigma - certainly its a very workable range for what we do. I'll see if I can get my hands on one for a test.
Thanks again
 
Mike,

Buhot has given you some good input.

Here's mine:

I own several RED cameras, most of them since August 2007, and wildlife/Nature documentaries are some of the most frequent productions I do - National Geographic, etc.

A large portion of my productions in adventure travel, alternative sports, nature, wildlife, etc are very mobile, with small crews - and the regular need for medium to long zooms. Having worked a lot with EFP 2/3" cameras and lenses before, I understand your dilemma in seeking long zooms for RED.

The long zooms we use the most are a Canon FD 150-600 - a stock lens except for a Century PL mount conversion, and a stock Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS. For medium length zooms we usually use a Nikon 80-200 f2.8 - both AF and AF-s versions. For wide beauty shots and scenics, we've had excellent results with Nikon 17-35, Nikon 14-24, and Tokina 11-16 (Nikon mount). Results have been excellent with all these lenses - theatrical quality.

Most of my productions are for television. We usually shoot subjects with little or no motion in 4k HD, 29.97, 1/96th shutter. For higher motion subjects where we need to overcrank, we have been shooting a lot of 3k, 16x9, 23.98 project rate, with 48 fps in Varispeed, and 1/120th shutter, for a 50% slo-mo. The results in both the 4k and 3k have been excellent - and the 4k and 3k footage cuts well together. In my experience, 2k and 4k don't cut together nearly as well as 4k and 3k. When 3k redcode Raw is debayered, you end up with around 2.34k - plenty of oversample down to a 2k or 1080p finish.

We haven't taken 3k through DI and out for theatrical release, but the color correction for our television programs has been quite good.

We've used RED a lot in the heat of the desert and tropics. Manually set the camera fan to "Hot", shade the camera whenever possible with small umbrellas, etc., and if necessary have some gel packs available to use for extended out in the heat work. If you do this you shouldn't have any problems.

Yes, you can use a block battery or battery belt for extended shooting. RED makes a cable for that. On a recent 10 RED camera production in the Philippines I was a DP for, we needed to hot swap the batteries on all cameras because we were shooting to RED Drives and we needed to have continuous running of the cameras. Our simple solution was to use a battery belt with an adaptor to plug into the power bus on the RED Power Plate. To change batteries, we'd send a PA around to each camera with the battery belt, plug into the power plate while the RED Battery was still attached, detach the old RED Battery, install the new RED Battery, then detach the battery belt from the plate. It worked fine.

For that mobile style of shooting we keep the setups as light as possible - we don't use matte boxes or follow focus units. We use screw-on filters, and rack lens barrels manually while eye focusing the camera.

For tripods we've had excellent results using the Miller 55 head and Miller Solo 1505 carbon fiber legs. The total weight of that combo is only 13.8 pounds. In a pinch we've even used that combo with lens setups as heavy as a Angenieux 24-290 with a matte box - and it performed well. We also use the Miller 2-stage Sprinter II CF legs for heavier loads - with excellent results.

We use sturdy backpacks for hiking in with RED kits - LowePro and Tamrac.

We also use medium and large Cine Saddles in the bush - they're great for quick run n' gun shooting where carrying a tripod is a liability.

Hope this input helps you. I've shot wildlife in Africa on two extended trips. If you need some help on your project, I'd be happy to help you out.
 
Mike,

An additional piece of information to Buhot's and Steve's messages; I've used the Canon EF 800mm/f5.6 L IS lens with and without a EF 1.4 extender. This works out just fine with the Birger EF mount. I've also used the Canon FD 150-600 which had an Optex PL mount conversion but consider the image of EF 800mm/f5.6 L quite a lot better.

The EF 800mm/f5.6 is amazingly light and have found the image stabilizer rather useful when shooting flying birds.
 
Hi Steve
Thanks for your very comprehensive reply. In my continual reading of these boards over the last year, I have always found your feedback useful - you are very generous in your responses to everyone. Thanks for that. :)

Much of your methodology as described above is familiar and comfortable for me. My 150-600 Canon was a favorite when shooting 35mm in the 'old days', and I'm glad now I didn't part with it! My guess is that this lens with the Nikon 80-200 you suggest (another old favorite) is a good solution that won't break the bank. Ive never used the Angenieux 24-290 - how would you rate the results (and ability to intercut) between that and the 150-600 ,assuming that I would find a doubler for the Angenieux?

You have put my mind at easy about the power issue - I'm used to running the Varicam etc., from all sorts of 'heath-robinson' arrangements, but was nervous that the Red might be twitchy about this kind of inventiveness!

Similarly, it seems that heat issues have gone away - in film days we went to extraordinary lengths to keep stock cool and mags out of the sun, so that too is familiar methodology. I'm fortunate in being able to do much of my work based around a 4x4 Landcruiser (hiking in lion country being a bit too "interesting" on occasion), so we can carry a lot more support gear than if we were having to hike.

The producers on the project are pushing for Red, which is good, but I want to be absolutely sure that I'm not biting of more than I can chew, with the potential of an already logistically difficult shoot combined with the learning curve and teething problems of new technology. A safer route in many ways would be the Panasonic 3700, but I will miss the slomo!

Thank for your generous offer to help. I hope you are serious, because I might just call your bluff!

Thanks again - I'm sure to be back with more questions shortly.
 
Thanks Lauri
I will try to borrow one and do some tests - I really do need a zoom / variable focal length ability, because often I'm stuck in one shooting position, surrounded by elephants or whatever, and need to reframe for full sequence coverage!
 
Yes Lauri, I'd imagine footage from the Canon EF 800 5.6 does look quite good. I haven't used that lens on RED.

In long primes for wildlife, I also use my Nikon 400 f3.5 AIS, with and without 1.4 and 2x, and the results have been excellent. Its a very crisp lens.

I've also used my RED 300, with an Optex 2x, and the results were very good.

A close associate of mine, Kennan Ward, who does extensive Alaska wildlife production, regularly uses a Nikon 200-400 zoom and a Nikon 50-300 AIS zoom (on my recommendation) - and loves them both. He shoots a lot of bears and animals that are sensitive to someone walking or driving around to get another framing - thus he uses the zooms.

For shooting from blinds or other stationary shooting, a long prime can be very good. If you need to be mobile though, the problem with using primes is having to walk or drive to each framing - something that usually spooks shy animals, or provokes aggression from ferocious ones - or cause you to miss a lot of key animal behavior while you're moving to the new setup spot. For me zooms are usually the ticket.

The 150-600 does not do well with a 2x. I never use mine with my Optex 2x.
 
My pleasure Mike...and thank you for the kind words...

Long live the 150-600! I love mine and would never part with it. Good glass stays good glass. I've loved the idea of using a lot of 20 year old glass on RED. For me the results just look more traditional and filmic - a look I'm usually after when I shoot nature and wildlife.

Some other thoughts: I always use an Element Technica Shock Mount and ET Speedy Clamp to side-mount my RED Drive on a 15mm top rod on the smart side of the camera. I shoot a lot in bouncing boats, jeeps, etc. - while doing longform programming - thus the Shock Mount avoids dropped frames with the RED Drive. If you need to change out a drive, its as easy as pushing the side button on the Speedy Clamp, popping the drive off, unplugging the cable, cabling the new drive, then snapping it onto the V-mount via the Speedy Clamp - about 10 seconds time elapsed. I'd highly recommend those accessories for the type of shooting you're going to do. I also use the ET EVF mount, and I top mount the RED battery on the back of the camera with a lightweight 15mm bracket from ET.

ET rocks when it comes to accessories. I've also been testing out their new rain cover for RED, and it is very good. You may want to seriously consider getting one of those to keep the rain and road dust off from the camera.

I've used the Angenieux 24-290 a fair amount, but avoid it for projects where any degree of mobility in needed. At 25 pounds, and close to 30 pounds with its accessories (Arri MB-14, etc.) it is a stationary lens. When I use it on RED, the whole setup is around 55 pounds - much too heavy a rig for any degree of mobility. Optically it is a great lens though. I have tested out my doublers with the lens, which bring it up to around 5.6. Side by comparison of the footage to footage from the stock Canon 150-600 boils down to a matter of taste. The Canon is a "warmer" and more filmic image to my eyes. The Angie with a 2x is a little more crisp (especially wide open), but once you get to f8 to f11 (where I'm usually shooting wildlife), its a tossup - but the 150-600 still has a more warm and filmic look. As you know, at 9 pounds the 150-600 is a lot more mobile than a 30 pound Angie. Plus the push/pull to zoom and re-frame and twist to rack focus function of the 150-600 is a lot faster to use than twisting separate gear rings on the Angie.

I own three versions of the nikon 80-200. The version of the Nikon 80-200 I favor for run n' gun shooting is the old AF version, with the push/pull zooming and twist focusing. I find I miss a lot less nature behavior shots with those features over the other individual barrel twist functions of the 80-200 AF-S.

I shot extensively at Phinda and Kruger in South Africa on my trips there. If you need some help on your project I'd be happy to step up and give you a hand. Among other genres, I've been shooting a ton of wildlife and nature the last two years with my three REDs - in Alaska, Hawaii, Asia, Latin America, California, and the Rocky Mountains. You're a true veteran of those genres and it would be very cool to team up with you for some work. Bring it on...PM me for contact info.

BTW - I'll be one of the first people to receive the new Epic and Scarlet cameras when they are ready to ship. Depending on when your feature goes into production, the added frame rates, and smaller size of those cameras should make them real good tools for your production.
 
Steve, this is all really useful advice. I had planned on getting the ET equipment you suggest, after reading on these forums of everyone's good experiences.

I agree with you about the doubler on the 150-600 - was never happy with it on 35mm, but thought maybe it worked shooting through the "middle" on Red. (wishful thinking!)

I had also thought of using the solid state drives rather than the Red Drive - expensive I know, but perhaps more resistant to harsh conditions. (what price dropped frames on a high-speed cheetah chase :()

The other question I forgot to ask - how long is it taking you to download and backup a typical day of shooting? I'm trying to decide whether its something myself and an assistant can do in the evenings (much like we used to reload film) or whether I need to hire a data wrangler to do this back in base camp? I normally don't shoot outside of "magic hour" at each end of the day, so on a busy day I might shoot 2 hours total footage. Any advice on backup workflows and equipment welcome, though I know it has been covered in various posts elsewhere.

I sent you a PM (at least I hope I did, not used to all this high-tech internet stuff!)
 
Mike,

With RED being S35, when you use the 150-600, which as you know is designed to cover FF35, you're shooting a crop out of the center of the lens. With the 2x on the 150-600 the minimum aperture is f11 so you need a ton of light - usually much more than you get in "magic hour" shooting. I've never thought the 150-600 is good wide open. I prefer it between f8 and f11 - as you know its the sweet spot of the lens.

The solid state drives (RED RAM) are quite good - but at $4,500 USD per drive they are costly. If you'll be getting excessive bounce while shooting you may want to go for the RED RAM drives. Maybe a combo of some RED RAM drives and some regular RED Drives with ET Shock Mounts would be the best idea.

For backup in the field we've been using duplicate 1 TB hard drives. My Book Studio Edition, with dual FireWire 800 buses have been very dependable for us - plus they're pretty small, thus easier to cart around. We put them in zippered protective cases from Western Digital for traveling. We're also looking for a small mobile LTO datatape solution, so we can back up to one drive, and then one LTO tape in the field. It sounds like you won't have a lot of backing up to do, so no, I don't think you need a separate data wrangler. With a MacBook Pro to check the RED Quicktime dailies, and Firewire 800 buses on the MacBook and the portable drives, the backing up goes real fast after the days shooting - with the amount of daily footage you said you'll have.

I got your PM. A short while ago I sent you of an email reply.

Cheers!
 
Hi Steve

Thanks again - more good info! I think I will equip each kit with 1 x Red Ram per camera, and 2 x Red Drives, plus CF Cards to cover all eventualities.

Daily downloads sound simple enough. I have a bunch of G-Tech drives of various sizes already, which I have found to be very robust, so will probably use those. I had intended to have an LTO system in the main base, for backing up footage on a weekly basis. I'd be interested to know what system you decide to go with.

Is there any answer to my earlier question about the Quicktime proxies being a problem when you shoot at 3K? (I read this on these boards somewhere)
 
mike holding said:
I will try to borrow one and do some tests - I really do need a zoom / variable focal length ability, because often I'm stuck in one shooting position, surrounded by elephants or whatever, and need to reframe for full sequence coverage!
Click to expand...

Sounds familiar. I've found the EF 28-300mm/f3.5-5.6 L IS USM together with a 1.4 extender a rather useful combo especially in a hide. The range from 28mm is 420mm is pretty large.
 
Thanks Lauri - yes that sounds like a good option, and I guess also not that heavy. Again I will try to get my hands on one to run some lens tests.
 
Happy to help...

QT proxies of RED 3k footage play fine for me in the QT player - same as 4k and 2k files.

We usually edit in FCP6. For TV and small screen projects with the 3k files, if we're using RED Alert for color correction and output render, in the render menu we select a Debayer Quality of Half High (selecting Full will take a while to render, and the Half High looks good), select an output format of QuickTime MOV, select ProRes 422 HQ as the QT codec, on the far right check the Scale box, type in 1920x1080, and select Gauss (smooth) from the Resample Filter menu - or other "sharp" or "smooth" resample types you want. Give the file a name and destination and hit render. The 3k file will then scale down and render easily to 1920x1080 ProRes 422 HQ - ready for ingest into FCP and editing.

Since you're going to DI and theatrical output your file processing and output will be more involved, but if you comb the Workflow forum here on RU, you should be able to easily figure out the current workarounds for using 3k files. Hopefully sometime soon with the next upgrades to post applications, many of them will natively recognize 3k files.

If you use FC Studio2, and use the Color application for correction, it won't natively recognize 3k files, but will half scale them down to 1.5k on ingest. For quick or smaller projects that's why we've been using the RED Alert procedure above to quickly one-light 3k files and scale them down to 1920x1080.

All my over-cranked footage for nature and sports is shot in 3k unless I absolutely need a higher frame rate than 3k will afford me, then I may use 2k. Once Epic ships, reportedly (yes, subject to change) much higher frame rates in all resolutions (including 3k) should be a reality. Also the burst frame rates with Scarlet may do real well for short takes of over-cranked action - we'll see. If they're in the final specs for the cameras, those over-cranking capabilities will be way cool for genres who regularly rely on over-cranking footage to get slo-mos and super slo-mos.
 
mike holding said:
guess also not that heavy.
Click to expand...

Mike,

Yes, the 28-300m is not heavy. Indeed, weight is a significant factor in wildlife shooting and the bigger the lens the more sturdy tripod and fluid head is needed. Thinking about long lenses, a practical problem is focusing. When you focus by hand say a 600mm or 800mm lens, the images appears as if there's an earthquake going on.

The nice thing about the Birger EF mount is that it can be controlled wirelessly. So far I've used my laptop for this, but the wireless Viewfactor knob should, according to Birger, be sent today. This makes all the difference as then one can focus and set the iris without touching the camera at all, and this is an advantage with long lenses. Second, the knob maps the focus ring to turn a full circle giving also quite a lot more precise control on the focus than turning the focus ring of the lens. All this implies with the EF mount one can manage with a lighter tripod and fluid head compared to if you used cinema lenses and PL mount.
 
Steve

Thanks regarding 3K proxies. This was a concern as we will be viewing dailies on FCP/Macbook Pro in the field, and the proxies need to be if sufficient quality to spot camera/lens problems etc. From what you describe it looks fairly straightforward, even for the IT challenged (like me!)

The full post production workflow is being handled by a top post-house in London who have quite a bit of experience with RED footage already, I think working with Baselight or a Quantel system (but I might be wrong!) so they have worked out the full workflow/grading/DI process. I just need a methodology so we can view and rough-cut sequences in the field ( to assess basic quality and see what is missing from sequences as we build them) and to keep us all on the same page with regard to framing, style etc.

Do you have any examples of footage shot 3K slomo that I could download and look at? Bear in mind that our internet is VERY slow here in the wilds (I think snails are faster!) so big files are a bit of a problem! About 500 MB is do-able. (overnight)

Thanks again
 
Hi Lauri
I am most comfortable using the biggest, heaviest lenses and fluid head I can use for stability - I'm quite familiar with the earthquake factor! It makes a huge difference to have a solid heavy rig. However, its nice to have a "portable" option for when you need to move the camera around quickly, or rig it in a tree, or carry it any distance. Thats where the Nikon would definitely be an option I think.
 
Mike,

Yes, the QT proxies from RED 3k files will play fine on your MacBook Pro laptop. That's what I use in the field to check dailies. There are four sizes of QT proxy generated: full, high, medium, small. I generally use the high ones. You can select "Fit to screen" from the View menu on the MB and watch full screen.

With RED One, if I know I'm going to be needing overcranked wildlife or sports footage, I set up the camera with : 3k, 16:9, Redcode 36 quality, a project frame rate of 23.98 (24 for you if going to filmout), and use the Varispeed menu to set 48 frames per second, and then set a shutter speed of around 1/120th second. That will give you a smooth 50% slo-mo on playback.

With this setup, when you view your QT proxie dailies, the player will recognize the 24 (or 23.98) frame project rate, but also then recognize your overcrank to 48 fps, and play back the clip in the 50% slow motion which you shot. You can also use the free Redcine software from RED to watch the dailies in slow motion as you shot them. For me, I usually just quickly review dailies using the QT proxies directly from the RED Drive via FireWire 800 to the MM Pro, and toss the shots that didn't work before I backup and offload the footage to other drives. I use this same setup profile when I need good slo-mos from sports, wildlife, aerials, etc.

When Epic and Scarlet (burst) ship, hopefully we will be able to do some amazing overcranked footage of fast motion subjects. We'll see...

You can rough cut sequences on your MB Pro in FCP6 using the RED QT proxies generated by the camera. The Workflow forum has a lot on that procedure.

Hmmm...small file examples of some of my RED 3k slow motion footage you can view online? I do have one example online you can check out. The entire piece was shot on RED. If you click on the "Southern Utah Ranch" link in my signature below, you'll find a short promotional piece I did for the southern Utah buffalo ranch I regularly stay at. There are three sizes of QT video on that page you can view: H.264, medium, small. The H.264 is about 51 MB, and the others are much smaller. Most of the promo was shot in 4k HD, 29.97, 1/96th sec shutter, but there are a few overcranked shots in it I shot using the exact 3k setup I outlined earlier in this post. Those 3k slow motion shots are the shot of two cowboys galloping their horses across a meadow, a shot of cowboys galloping along side a running herd of buffalo, and just after that a shot of a single cowboy sitting on his horse as the buffalo mill about.

50% slo-mos of fast action subjects, shot in 3k with RED using the other setup parameters I outlined above, are glass smooth on playback. The QT proxies play the slow motion, as will Redcine, and FCP.

Hope this helps...
 
Sounds like an amazing project, Mike.

Assuming that Scarlet 2/3" (interchangeable lens version) comes out this year or early next (?), you might consider that camera as well, as it will be extremely portable, and can shoot 3K RAW at up to 120fps, with 150fps burst! Put some big Canon or Nikon glass on that camera, and the magnification factor would be significant. The newer Red models should be better on bootup time, battery life, heat and low-light performance, etc.
 
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