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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet FF35 vs Epic X

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cinemano

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Hello..

If the sensor on the Scarlet was a FF35, would the EPIC X still have a superior picture to the scarlet?
 
No. I think the FF35 will have a superior picture due to the Monstro sensor.

I don't think Redcode 250 @ 5K will be better than Redcode 100 @ 6K when you take into account the higher bit depth (16bit) and larger pixel size (6.0 micron) of the Monstro.
 
98% but I don't work for them.

Their idea was that in DSMC all but Fixed Scarlet would allow you to upgrade the sensor, while the Brain would need upgrading only for being able to manage higher resolutions and framerates. Hope I am not mistaken. My memory does fail at times but I feel quite sure about this.
 
No, I don't think so. Upgrading the sensor = buying a new brain.

If you want a particular sensor, either wait for the brain that comes with it, or buy it when it becomes available and sell the old one.
 
Once you get into the modular designs of the Scarlet and Epic, as opposed to the RED ONE, the whole point is that the sensor/brain unit can be replaced or swapped out. Sort of pointless to have to change just the sensor inside the brain (unless defective and you're just putting in the same type of sensor), since the brain is designed with that sensor in mind.
 
However they do have both Mysterium-X and Mostro in Scarlet brains, so it does seem you can do just about anything. I agree that Mostro and Epic go hand in hand, best image with most fps options, crunching power for insane resolutions and bit-depth, what have you.

We'll find out soon enough though. It already feels like it might be around the corner.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
However they do have both Mysterium-X and Mostro in Scarlet brains, so it does seem you can do just about anything. I agree that Mostro and Epic go hand in hand, best image with most fps options, crunching power for insane resolutions and bit-depth, what have you.
Click to expand...

"Everything is subject to change. Count on it."

Enough said.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
However they do have both Mysterium-X and Mostro in Scarlet brains,.
Click to expand...

Not in the same brain, you order the particular sensor/brain combo. The whole point of the modular design is to avoid taking apart the camera to add new features, you just replace the module. If you had to actually replace the sensors inside the brain to upgrade, then what's the point of the brain module? Why not just go back to the single camera unit design of the RED ONE?
 
I might be mistaken but I thought they said the Sensor could be replaced without adding more "power under the hood" meaning you would be limited to lower framerates what have you but gain the bit-depth and other sensor specific features... but if both David and Curran think otherwise then perhaps my memory failed me a bit.
 
From Mysterium-X to Monstro S35 sensor size -- not clear if for both or just Epic (thread's subject):

Jannard said:
There is no S35 Monstro sensor at this point. When there is one, there will be an upgrade path. There will always be an upgrade path as things become available.

Jim
Click to expand...



On the upgrade path only comprehending the sensor, not exactly the brain, there's just an unofficial subject to change thought, not final position though:

Jannard said:
We will likely (not for sure) make a sensor upgrade path for a brain BUT. It probably is a bad idea for two reasons.

1. The electronics that goes with a given Brain will likely hold back some capability of a new sensor. It may be major or it may be minor... don't know right now, which is why we have no official position. Remember that electronics inside the Brain will also improve as time goes along. That's why we prefer the "matched set" approach of sensor and electronics inside a Brain.

2. The cost to upgrade just the sensor in an existing Brain will be relatively expensive, nearly the cost of a new brain (75-80%?). In that case, you'll end up with only one working Brain instead of two. Buying a new Brain and selling the old Brain, even at 50% of it's original cost would make better business sense. Or at least it makes more sense to me.

I'm answering you because you asked and are a good customer. But this is not an official, final position. Just thinking out loud. This is one of those "subject to change" thoughts because we really aren't prepared to tell you anything yet. There is a lot of time for us to develop a final position before anyone has to make any kind of decision.

My best.

Jim
Click to expand...

 
Not sure what he means by a Monstro S35 sensor, since the Monstro sensor is large by implication -- FF35 -- and if were only S35 in size, it wouldn't be very "monstro", would it?

I guess he means a 14-bit Monstro sensor cut down to S35 size, as opposed to a 12-bit Mysterium-X sensor? But you'd then think a switch from 12-bit to 14-bit would require a new brain anyway. I have no idea what's going on here, but Jim implies what I said, that it's probably cheaper (and simpler, faster) to just switch out the whole sensor/brain combo unit.
 
That's correct David,
Jim's has stated that upgrading the Epic sensor requires upgrading the brain...
Jannard said:
With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor......
Jim
Click to expand...

Also note, that putting s35 cine glass on a Red FF35 camera will result in a slight drop in resolution (10%) going from the 5.4um pixels to 6.0um pixels.
But whatever you do it's sure going to be interesting. Firstly you'll have all those FF35 Scarlet's with Nikon/Canon FF35 glass taking 24MB stills ....not a huge industry killer, but with the same camera taking movies at 6K it will surely put pressure on the s35 formats. People will love the Scarlet FF35 for it's lower cost (than other Reds), 6K, higher ASA/DR of latitude.

The pressure on the s35 cine industry will be all the FF35 DSMC movie makers will have 'potentially' better quality images than their s35 counterparts, (leaving focus pulling to one side).
Even if pixel technology improves, it will improve in the still & cine markets at the same rate or even more in the still market because of sheer volume. I believe the image/fps advancements in the DSMC market will put pressure on the cine market to shoot FF35 which will bring cine FF35 lenses onto the market. I think Jim needs to ride out the s35 glass wave before he introduces FF35 cine glass. He's already addressed the FF35/Scarlet lenses with the announcement of the FF35 hybrid still lenses. How these lenses will go on the FF35 Epic in the pro cine arena is another issue. Obviously to be competitive with nikon/canon FF35 lenses, the Red FF35 lenses will need some special features they can only compliment the Scarlet/Epic functionality. I still expect him to announce proper FF35 Cine lenses after the launch of his FF35 camera, much like what happened with R1. First came the camera, then came the lenses. The only difference being is when the FF35 cine camera (EPIC) is released their won't be many dedicated FF35 lenses to put on it....that's if he doesn't announce/launch FF35 cine glass at the time as the FF35 EPic is launched.

so getting back to the question...
cinemano said:
If the sensor on the Scarlet was a FF35, would the EPIC X still have a superior picture to the scarlet?
Click to expand...
I say no. frame speed to one side, the image will be better on the FF35 Scarlet.
Jim could have released a Monstro sensor (13 stops) for the s35 Epic, but he's left the higher quality Monstro sensor for the FF35 camera only (at this point).
Whilst there are some technical considerations, from a marketing perspective this encourages people to move to his FF35 cine cameras. I applaud this as I think with film gradually moving to digital there are some changes needing to occur. The S35 capture format has served the industry well for 100 years but that was with slower film stocks & subsequent focus/lighting limitations. But now with digital sensors getting faster, lighting/focus issues on digital FF35 sensors/glass will now be equal to it's S35 film/glass counterpart, so no need to remain at s35 capture aperatures, particularily as there are pixel bottlenecks being able to meet film standards for the same size frame. Moving to FF35 will also open up opportunities for still camera companies to meet the cine industry needs.
I consider the Epic X to be a transitional technology before digital cine FF35 technologies takeover.

Dave,
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Not sure what he means by a Monstro S35 sensor, since the Monstro sensor is large by implication -- FF35 -- and if were only S35 in size, it wouldn't be very "monstro", would it?
Click to expand...

I thought of the name as referring to the larger photosites rather than the overall sensor size, but who knows.
 
Good finds, thanks for posting them here. I better stop now or I'll go into a hypothetical spiral forcing David to tell me to calm down.

ARE WE THERE YET? :happyhappy:
 
Arri Compact Primes

Arri Compact Primes

There is a cine lens with a Diagonal large enough for the FF35 frame; it’s called the Arri Compact Primes. It covers the full 36mm X 24mm frame. They vary in a range from T1.5 for the 85mm and the 50mm, T2.1 for the 35mm and the 28mm, to the T2.9 for the 25mm and 21mm, and finally to the T3.6 for the 18mm. And of course there are the three zoom lenses announced by Red.

Humberto Rivera
 
Wow!:

• 14mm T2.8
• 17mm T2.0
• 20mm T2.0
• 24mm T2.0
• 28mm T2.0
• 35mm T2.0
• 50mm T2.0
• 85mm T2.0
• 100mm T2.8
• 135mm T2.8
• 180mm T2.8

Does that canon set have a long focus throw?
 
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