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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Raw...

Sergio Perez said:
I would love to see a complete S35 Scarlet kit with some form of RED Rocket for sub 10k. Maybe this is asking too much. Maybe sub 12k?
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dunno how it works w/ all of you guys but $9,500 has some more impakt in 95% of cases

edit
impakt and not impact.. no necessary though.. JJ knows very well how to handle w/ kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkks :)
 
Lachlan Ward said:
Not sure how many 733t speakers peruse this here form. So I thought I should point out the obvious. R3D is RED in 733t(leet) speak.

Its a funny way of branding the format. I thought it was quiet cool.
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As a point of order, it should be noted that the most accepted transposition is 1337, not 733t. ;-)

Very excited for the public release of the new Colour Science. I still go back to the Build 16 thread every now and then to check out the high ISO tests Jim did. Amazing stuff.
 
RED-RAW.jpg
 
Jannard said:
Because we can't call it a .raw file. :-) Each camera company has its own sensor design and RAW file format.

Jim
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Jim, you called it R3D because the 3 is like a backwards E right? So it says RED.
Or is there another reason?
 
Sergio Perez said:
For features, Fiction, and even documentary when time is not an issue, nothing beats RAW.

The advantage of the other formats, like AVC-Intra, XDCAM 4:2:2, H264, etc. is Speed- No need for demosaic, color balance a "vanilla" picture, etc. The RED will be able to do this, if my understanding is correct, by adding the 4k Red Rocket on the Editing machine.
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You can do real time playback at 2k and lower resolutions today, without demosaic, without RAW conversion. You can get the look you want by setting the metadata in camera. With REDCODE RAW you do have both "worlds".


Sergio Perez said:
So, back to the new generation of cameras, like the 5d Mark II. Like someone said, its a matter of economics: a 2k USD 5D Mark II can give a spectacular picture, well beyond what anyone can achieve with a Sub 12k camera right now (dinamic range, low light, resolution, bokeh, even compression- losing to maybe AVCINTRA and being probably on par with XDCAM EX). Is it superior (in teory, since the Scarlet only exists on paper) to a Scarlet? Obvioulsy not, but will it, with high end post production and having been used and well lit by a good DP, look that much worse? I don't think so.
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First off, the resolution of the 5D2 is sub-1080p. Don't believe me? Go measure it. It's HDV rez - 1440 or so horizontally, and although it gets the "full" 1080p resolution vertically, that detail is so corrupted by aliases it hardly counts. Indeed, that is why the codec needs such a high data rate yet still leaves visible artifacts as aliases eat bits that should be doing to real image detail, and confuses motion estimated codecs. The compression does not stand up to color correction - I've seen blocking and banding. So if what you shoot is mostly bokeh, shallow DOF etc. you won't see the faults of this camera. Shoot anything with real detail, edges, sharp focus, and you'll see not only aliasing, but cross color artifacts where green turns orange. That does NOT happen on RED cameras. And then there's the slow rolling shutter. And the lack of choice of fps.

Sergio Perez said:
Of course I would love to be able to shoot Scarlet and RAW- but the complete package, following previously announced pricings, for an S35 Scarlet is 7k Body only. I'll have to add to that the LCD, sound and in out module, and also add the RED Rocket if I want a DVCPRO HD/ PRO RES like performance in editing. This will take me beyond 15k, at least.
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I'm sorry we can't give away superior image quality for free. It would be lovely if we could, but it does cost to do things properly. We'd have been justifiably crucified if we're read out the RED sensor skipping 2 out of every 3 rows. Decent high fps (because overcranking is a great creative tool) isn't cheap. That needs more, and higher speed electronics to keep up with the data rate.

Sergio Perez said:
However, the big comparison here shouldn't be the Scarlet with the 5d. In fact, a 5d would probably be an excelent perspective camera (car mounts, extreme shots etc.) for a Scarlet shot feature. The main competition should be from Canon's video division.

If rumours are to be true, Canon is preparing a new entry into the prosumer camcorder market. Following the incredible surprise of the 5d Mark II video performance and firmware update, we can expect an APSC sized sensor XL ( S35 ), probably with either the same h264 encoding or something better (cineform?). This will be sub 10k with everything the XL series camcorders have to offer right now, and, obviously, optimized for Video.
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I'm sorry, but for all the good work I've seen Canon do, I've also seen them do funky fake progressive modes, we've seen them recently "forget" with the 5D2 that the majority of the world runs at 25fps/50fps not 29.97fps/59.94fps and certainly not 30fps.

h264 and other temporal based codecs are great for delivery purposes, but they're not really suitable for acquisition codecs.

Sergio Perez said:
Jim, I'm saying this as a potential and eager Scarlet buyer. Its a matter of value for money. Features and blockbusters have been shot with XL H1 and distributed in theatres. Some acclaimed directors over here (Hong-Kong) are using the 5d Mark II for some interesting projects. Yes, different tools, but with today post-production being so powerful, if you have a clean sensor and picture, manipulation can be done in a way that allows for a high quality image that can be displayed in theatres- heck, how was the Phantom Menace shot?

I would love to see a complete S35 Scarlet kit with some form of RED Rocket for sub 10k. Maybe this is asking too much. Maybe sub 12k?
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But that's it exactly. The 5D2 does not produce a totally clean image. If I add up the artifacts that I've seen in camera footage - macroblocks, aliasing, funky colours on high detail areas, banding, those are things which I personally find unacceptable and they're things I don't see in RED footage.

Graeme
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
"they are digging in the wrong place"
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Love it! Funny how you can visualize things just out of one sentence!
Thanks to make me LOL

BTW, just a precision: while I love RAW, the sony s-log and panasonic pana-log, even if there are not RAW are truely "digital negativ". And that's what we need.

Cheers,
antoine.
 
The 5D2 does not produce a totally clean image. If I add up the artifacts that I've seen in camera footage - macroblocks, aliasing, funky colours on high detail areas, banding, those are things which I personally find unacceptable and they're things I don't see in RED footage.

Graeme
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__________________

Exactly my take on 5D footage too. Canon's HDV cams produce fewer artifacts even if they don't share the low light sensitivity and DOF characteristics of a 5D, especially if there is any kind of camera movement during a shot.
 
Red vs Film Stock vs Compression and Scarlet update

Red vs Film Stock vs Compression and Scarlet update

When Scarlet is out to the world, people who are talking about 5D Mark II will be switching to Scarlet with ooos and whaas.

Jim,

Why not we have comparison of RED with Film Stocks and is there any idea of creating some kind of metadata mapping or LUT or some kind of stuff to compare red footage with Film stocks. The reason I raise this issue is still Film Stock research from kodak and fuji is on and they are moving to next level in film stocks.

Whats the RED answer?

Dont ask me not compare with Film, Since whole world feature film industry is still shooting in Film Stocks.

Also like to get whats your answer for Digital Cinema Exhibition, DCDM and DCP and how is going to change game in this arena?
 
Look Redcode Raw is amazing but it really isn't raw. It is compressed, information is thrown away. I'd rather use it than raw actually because of the data rate but it seems a little disingenuous to go on about how great raw is when that's not what the cameras record.
 
It is compressed RAW and it maintains all the same flexibility of grading and exposure latitude as uncompressed RAW. Doesn't seem disingenuous to me... seems ingenious, though.

Jim
 
RAW, like ice-cream, comes in many packages. They're all RAW though, in that no detrimintal image processing that clips the data, like matrix, white balance, saturation, contrast etc. are applied. That's the key thing.

The compression is important as without that, you'll be paying more for storage than the camera costs.

Graeme
 
Graeme,
about RAW...
Could Red develop a software that exploiting all RAW gamma info give us more DR?

excuse again my english: a HDR software that gives the Linear (high light) and RedLog (lows) info for a single frame??

This would give us 2 stops more of DR, using the info in RAW that we lost when we choose a single gamma.

I´m dreaming??
 
I don't see why a 3rd party couldn't do that with the SDK, or you could even export linear 16bit tiffs and use a HDR program with them.

Graeme
 
I'm motion images RAW guy!

That's make me a bit different from still images RAW guy!?

Or I'm wrong again!!??

If it's so easy I would get RAW motion images (24 fps, etc,...) from Canon, Nikon or Panasonic with DSLRs enabled HD cameras?

But I didn't get it!

That a key point!!!

So I say with RED technology and wait for... R1 sensor upgrade, Scarlet, Epic or whatever is coming up next there...
 
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