Backup and Tape device answers

[Tim Jones]

Sas != scsi

Sas != scsi

I could use a SAS HP Tape drive with the ATTO Technologies ExpressSCSI UL4S HBA on that G4 it'll work, right?

Simply, no. SAS and SCSI are two different interconnect technologies. You should purchase the SCSI version of the HP drive as we don't currently have a recommendation for a PCI-compatible SAS HBA.

And what about BRU LE?

Yes, but LE (Light Edition) is not tuned to work with larger environments like BRU PE and BRU Server.

Tim

 

[roland miller]

Lto 4 solution

Lto 4 solution

hello everyone!

I am looking at getting an Lto 4 external tape drive for a mac. I want to spend around 3k or so, and will be using is as a backup device for media. What i would like to know is what brand names are the best solution for this, as well as why said brand name would work best. Also, any additional information would be greatly appreciated! whatever you think might pertain to setting this up. advantages and disadvantages of certain brand names would be very appreciated too!

thanks
keith

 

[Tim Jones]

HP and ATTO are the best combination

HP and ATTO are the best combination

hello everyone!

I am looking at getting an Lto 4 external tape drive for a mac. I want to spend around 3k or so, and will be using is as a backup device for media. What i would like to know is what brand names are the best solution for this, as well as why said brand name would work best. Also, any additional information would be greatly appreciated! whatever you think might pertain to setting this up. advantages and disadvantages of certain brand names would be very appreciated too!

thanks
keith

Keith,

If you followed any of the forum threads that are dealing with this, HP's LTO-4 solutions are the best option with the Tandberg Data drives coming in a close second. If you're working in a G4/G5 environment, you'll want to use SCSI with ATTO's ExpressSCSI UL4S HBA. However,, if you're on a Mac Pro, you can use either SCSI or SAS using the ATTO ExpressSCSI UL5D or their ExpressSAS H380 or H680 HBAs. Simply match the HP tape drive with the proper interface type.

Either of these will provide high performance, high capacity archval grade storage for your work.

CDW can provide a combination of the ATTO HBA and the HP LTO-4 drive (1780 or 1840). The combined cost of H/W will be right around $3K.

HTH,
Tim

 

[Shawn R]

Tim great information. I have seen the light that tape backup is the way to go. Read your insights on HP DAT and that is a good low budget solution.

What I would like is specific insight on what I could string together from what I have on hand.

The list of components I have kicking around, (I know its old, just want to know if it will get the job done?):

--supermicro P3TDE6 with 2 P3 Tulatins 1.4Ghz
The board has 68 pin scsi on board x 2

It also has 64bit pci slots that I could put a Adaptec 29160 that I have.
http://www.frontierpc.com/ProductDetails.aspx?eId=11502371

Would I stick with WinXP 64 or go to Linux? My NLE is PC based.


To sum up:
Will my setup up work?

 

[Shawn R]

In total if I can keep my budget below $800 I will be very happy.

I would be backing up about 200 Gigs per week on average. With LTO 3 would I be right to calculate about 40 mins and about 83mins with LTO 2?

In terms of price between LTO - 2 and LTO -3 is about $400 for the drive. In the long run this is not a lot.

For the LTO with SCSI 68 pin interface some I am looking at:

Quantum Ultrium 920 - H for $820 CAD
IBM ULTRIUM LTO3 - H for $700 CAD
Quantum Certance LTO-3 CL1101-SST INTERNAL $940 CAD
Quantum Ultrium-3 LTO-3 CL1101
Adic 1x8 Ultrium-2 (1.6/3.2Tb) tape loader with Tandberg Data tape drive
DELL IBM PV110T LTO-2 0G8264
SEAGATE DAT 40x6 20/40Gb SE/LVD 68-pin External SCSI tape drive with DATA and Power Cables, terminator and 6-slot Magazine.

To sum up:
Which drives are good and which do I stay away from.

 

[Tim Jones]

Shawn,

If you can bump to the LTO-3, you'll be much happier as there are far fewer tape changes. Just remember - 400GB/tape!

So far as DAT is concerned, if you can afford the LTO-3 option, you'll be much happier, but the DAT answer will definitely save you bucks in the short run. The DAT will only give you 2.5MB/second and IIRC the Seagate autoloader mechanism was a bit flakey. We've got 3 dead units in our lab - the drives still work, but the tapes must be changed manually.

Your existing system hardware is far more than adequate for the tape side of things and the on board SCSI should work fine. However, I would stay with Windows XP. Heck, my Acid Pro system is a 1.2GHz AMD Athlon with 512MB and XP SP2. I've successfully pushed that to as high as 115 tracks and a stack of VSTi plugins.

In your case, I again think that NovaStor's NovaBackup is going to be your most cost-effective answer for Windows software.

 

[Shawn R]

Thanks Tim, you can't imagine how happy I am to hear that I can resurect the Tulatin unit that I have. I was just going to get rid of it, lol. It is a good feeling when a plan comes together.

I am going to go with the LTO-3. I see a few on Ebay, is there any make or model to watch out for? That is kind of a general question. The makes that I am looking at I touched on in my previous post.

Thanks again.

 

[Are Pilskog]

Keith,

If you followed any of the forum threads that are dealing with this, HP's LTO-4 solutions are the best option with the Tandberg Data drives coming in a close second. If you're working in a G4/G5 environment, you'll want to use SCSI with ATTO's ExpressSCSI UL4S HBA. However,, if you're on a Mac Pro, you can use either SCSI or SAS using the ATTO ExpressSCSI UL5D or their ExpressSAS H380 or H680 HBAs. Simply match the HP tape drive with the proper interface type.

Either of these will provide high performance, high capacity archval grade storage for your work.

Hello
I've been looking around for the above information. Thanks!
However, what are the solutions for organizing the backup?

I guess Final Cut Server is a solution. Will this program organize all kind of files (like DVCPro HD and R3D)? And how will this program work if we use different editing programs (like Adobe, Avid and Final Cut)?

Any other solutions for organizing and retrieving backuped files?

Any input would be highly appreciated

Are

 

[Tim Jones]

However, what are the solutions for organizing the backup?

I guess Final Cut Server is a solution. Will this program organize all kind of files (like DVCPro HD and R3D)? And how will this program work if we use different editing programs (like Adobe, Avid and Final Cut)?

Any other solutions for organizing and retrieving backuped files?

In addition to FCS, there are solutions out there including Apace Systems and CatDV/DAX that allow for deep metadata storage and retrieval from both disk and tape - regardless of source material type or editing suite.

Maybe someone with CatDV or FCS experience can start a thread to delve more deeply into this .

Tim

 

[Tim Jones]

Use caution with eBay tape drives...

Use caution with eBay tape drives...

I am going to go with the LTO-3. I see a few on Ebay, is there any make or model to watch out for? That is kind of a general question. The makes that I am looking at I touched on in my previous post.

We've not run into any issues with any of the current brands of LTO-3 - HP, IBM, Quantum (Certance), or Tandberg DATA. My only recommendation is that you require the right to return the device in the event that it's non-functional if you buy via eBay. The reason folks are selling tape drives on eBay (aside from a company collapse) is because the drives didn't work for them.

Tim

 

[Are Pilskog]

Thanks Tim
I'll start a new thread and see if anyone out there can give me some good advices on organizing material...
Here is the new thread:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31074

And then one more question for you Tim:
The difference between half height and full height HP LTO-4 drive (1780 vs 1840), is the differenze in the tape size or the LTO box or both? And will this difference in size have any effect on backup process, secuity etc...?

Thanks, Are

 

[Tim Jones]

LTO HH vs. FH

LTO HH vs. FH

The difference between half height and full height HP LTO-4 drive (1780 vs 1840), is the difference in the tape size or the LTO box or both? And will this difference in size have any effect on backup process, security etc...?

It's primarily the drive's form factor, but the full height drives are capable of providing a slight increase in performance as the tape is actually moved at a faster rate since the full height drive provides better cooling capability. However, because of the type of data that most of us are working on in our worlds, the added tape speed doesn't really translate to much of a difference in actual I/O speeds.

In our lab tests of LTO-4 Full Height versus Half Height we found the I/O performance of both the drives to top out at around 112MB/Sec when processing non-compressible data (in our case 350GB of HD source with 48Khz Stereo Audio) when using a high-speed RAID box on a SAS controller (the ATTO ExpressSAS H380). Similar results were uncovered with LTO-3. For LTO-2, the Full Height Drive was noticeably quicker with the Full Height turning a sustained 31MB/Sec and the Half Height tuning in 25MB/sec (LVD SCSI).

However, in a seat-of-the-pants result, we found that the half-height drive loaded the media more quickly in each case, but the idle fan noise was a bit louder.

The media capacity is the same and the write format is compatible regardless of the drive form factor.

HTH,
Tim

 

[Shawn R]

I just picked up a LTO-3 that was apparently used only for a week. So we will see what happens.

Now what are my choice besides sneakernet to get my footage over to backup.
I suppose the least expensive would be GIGe or is there a way to connect via scsi? Unless I missed something I am guessing there is not.

 

[Tim Jones]

Hi Shawn,

Congrats on the LTO-3! BTW - PC Mall is having a blowout sale on LTO-3 tapes ($30 ea IIRC).

As for transfer, If you're dealing with 100's or GB, I'd write to a FW or eSATA harddrive and then just shuttle it via sneakernet.

Otherwise, even an unclogged GbE is only going to net you 100MB/sec at best.

However, if you've got REALLY deep pockets, there's always InfinibBnd

Tim

 

[Ranniel Araw]

Hello Tim,

Thank you so much for this thread. I've now decided to go for this setup:

-Mac Pro 8 core entry level
-HP Ultrium LTO-4 1760 SAS External
-Atto EXPRESSSAS H380
-Bru LE

-HP LTO4 Ultrium RW data cartridge
-HP StorageWorks SAS External-Min 1x-2M Cable Assembly Kit

Atto H380 has a x8 PCIe host interface. This would still work on mac pro with pcie 2.0 x4 interface right?

 

[Are Pilskog]

In addition to FCS, there are solutions out there including Apace Systems and CatDV/DAX that allow for deep metadata storage and retrieval from both disk and tape - regardless of source material type or editing suite.
Tim

Hello Tim (or somebody else who might know the answer)
From another post you (Tim) recomends this setup for a new Mac Pro (correct me if this is not true):
HP LTO-4 (1760 or 1840)
Atto ExpressSAS H380 or H680 HBAs

Meight I ask how the LTO shows up on the Mac desktop. Will it show up like a harddrive, with the different tapes labebeled as different drives?

The reason I am asking is to find out how the LTO will work with editing programs (and servers like Cat DV or Final Cut Server) when it comes to organizing and retrieving files.

For instance, if I need to retrieve 5 short clips from a 800G LTO tape (with 1000 clips totally), will I need to manually find these files myself from the LTO tape or is there some way the editing program/server will find and copy the files I need over to the project editing discs (Just like batching a videotape in the old days).

Hope you understand my question, and apologize my poor english.

Thanks, Are

 

[Rob Gardner]

having read these posts carefully, I am about to make the following LTO4 hardware purchase:
1) HP LTO4 ULtrium SAS Half Height 1760
tape drive (external, desktop model)
2) ATTOTECH EXPRESS SAS HBA (or whatever you might think is better) and cable

My problem is the software purchase. BRU PE seems to be getting very good comments on this forum, but the tech guys at both vendors bidding on the hardware warned me away from BRU. The alternative suggested was Archiware's PresSTORE.

Can anyone give me a comparative review of the two, or any thoughts at all? Archiware's PresSTORE is more expensive and seems more complicated to me. Any thoughts at all would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Stacey Spears]

If anyone is interested, I have posted an HP internal LTO-3 drive for sale. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31420

 

[michael zaletel]

Went with an HP 1760 External and ATTA H380 and extremely happy I did. I also opted for BRU PE. Bru support was extremely helpful and I thought the following questions/answers from BRU would be useful to others.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

1. Where does BRU store the archive file so that I can back that up as well in case of a problem with the computer I used?

It is written to the tape/disk archive within the actual archive, nothing else needs to be backed up. If the original computer with the original BRU install was clobbered (meaning your database within BRU that keeps track of all this internally is gone) you would simply "import" the archives which then rebuilds the database that says "go look on this tape for that file." Or if you know you want that archive on that tape, the import simply tells BRU where to seek to that file.

2. I tried to backup 700GB but then a message came up that tape was full and to insert a new tape. I thought the capacity of the tapes was 800GB. How much additional storage space does the BRU format require and how can I know before I create the archive that the files I have selected will not fit on one single tape. I do not want to split archives up among multiple tapes so I need to know in advance whether the job I am creating will fit on one tape?

14% to 18% is BRU's additional metadata overhead. Basically, multiply the amount of data the filesystem claims and multiply by 1.18. If you have 700GB that would be 826 GB.

3. Let's say that I use one computer to create the archives but want to use another computer to restore. How do I move or sync the data between the two computers? Do I need to buy two licenses to do this or is one enough if only using one at a time?

That would be two licenses and the catalogs can be shared between the two systems.
Slightly off topic but important, if worst case scenario happened and lets say you only had a Linux or a Solaris system around, you would download a BRU demo for one of those OSes (because the restore function never expires on any BRU products whether you have a paid license or not) to that OS, and restore the files there. We don't lock archive recovery to the same system, or even same OS that was originally used. And since the recovery function works into perpetuity, you wouldn't need to buy another OS license like a Linux to do this, just the demo would be needed.

4. When this trial license expires, will the tapes I create during the trail period become essentially worthless because I won't be able to restore the data without a licensed copy or is there some other way you provide for me to be able to restore those tapes? I am hesitant to invest much time in evaluating your software if the work being done meanwhile will be useless once the trial expires if I decide I don't want to use your software going forward.

Restore functions never expire--at the 31 day mark, only BACKUP disables, you can restore forever. And that applies if you ever had to download a different OS version as above.

 

[Tim Jones]

Shooter - thanks for sharing and thanks for placing your trust in BRU. My team is very serious about supporting ALL of our users. Be sure to keep your email client tuned up as the engineers are already moving towards the 2.1 update based on user feedback.

Tim