Effect of Red's FF35 to Industry?

[david farland]

What effect will Red's 6K full frame camera (and lenses) have on the industry?
with it's.....
- film like dynamic range
- greater luma/chroma information
- tighter depth of fields

To me this is similiar to what R1 promised and gave the industry.
So, on paper it looks like the Red FF35 will have a similiar effect.
Also, is this a beginning on the convergence of cine/still formats?

What do you think?

note, answers to leave out: nobody needs more pixels, investment in older technologies with prevent this, R1 killed film anyway, always use right camera for the right job.

Dave,

 

[I Bloom]

I think it's not a steady progression, but an ebb and flow with a general trend toward digital.

I'm not sure that full frame as a shooting format will be ideal. I think that 35mm was settled on as a film format in part because it is a great compromise between resolution, economics of film stock and most importantly the physics of lenses (in terms of light transmission and depth of field). The same parameters apply to digital cameras though the "film stock" in this case is significantly less expensive.

So my guess is 4.5K-5K will be the capture format for most feature films and television shows even after FF35 and 645 are available. While 6K+ will definitely be used... I think it is more useful for still and specialty films. Just a guess. Pretty hard to predict. I'll definitely shoot a film in 28K just to say I did.

To answer your question. The real film killer, so to speak is dynamic range and sensitivity. If you can make a digital format that rolls off highlights like film and treats skin tones well, reacts as well as film in low light then you'll have a film killer. In the next few years however I'm expecting a brief resurgence of 35mm and 16mm, as people try to differentiate themselves from digital cinema and discover how good these new Kodak stocks are.

Still photographers want to shoot video until they figure out what it means not to use strobes and shoot everything at 48th of a second. So while the cameras might merge, the professions are less likely.

I definitely could be very very wrong

IBloom

 

[Tom Lowe]

The only thing that will hold back FF35 is lack of lenses. But once that problem is solved, I think everyone will want to shoot on FF35. And why not? Perhaps you might want to shoot deep focus, and choose something with a smaller sensor, but generally speaking, FF35 should be king.

With digital stills cameras, once you go FF35, you never go back. And why would you? FF35 produces far superior images to cropped-sensor (S35) cameras. More resolution, better light sensitivity, less noise, more artistic options with DOF. With FF35 Monstro we will see increases in bit-depth and DR.

If you want pristine 4K, then shooting 6K Bayer makes perfect sense.

And so to me, it's a total no-brainer. FF35 is the way of the future. :sifone:

 

[Roberto B]

welcome to the gang man.

 

[david farland]

I'm very interested to see how much better FF35 6K will look converted to 35mm film and HD.
As for the 35mm standard, I note it was agreed exactly 100 years ago....1909!
Red's provided a crack in the expensive 35mm camera framework that's lasted 100 years...will they provide a crack in the 35mm acquisition frame standard? Take cine to FF35.....in line with still photography.

- Resolution (& colour data) will keep on going up, atleast while JJ is around. Jim will take the gamble that the cine market will be going to FF35 anyway. He just wants to accelerate it and to do that I expect the 13+ monstro pixels will be one of the sweetners to go FF35. Otherwise, why would you not provide 13+ monstro pixels in a S35 format? And I love the idea of having a camera (FF35) that really competes with film but at the same time having these Red FF35 lenses makes me more competitive with the rest of the industry. Kinda like provides the writing on the wall for all those S35 lens owners.

It'll be like....you want digital at film-like latitude/colour.....come to me. You wanna use panavision/zeiss/other S35 lenses...umm well you can, and they're fine on a S35 sensor, but if you really want high quality digital....use Red FF35 lenses on a Red FF35 camera, otherwise you're wasting quality. Firstly by not using FF35 lenses and secondly by not using a 13+ (FF35) camera at all. Comes back to that sweetner thing. Jim may come under a lot of pressure to create a 13+ / S35 sensor from all the people who have investment in S35 lenses. Bit like the R1 5K sensor upgrade only it'll be a S35/13+ monstro upgrade. Data throughput will kill this not to say he couldn't plan for this in advance. But he's not only fighting this board, he's fighting the still lens/camera (FF35) manufacturers moving into the cine space. Either way, would you give up the opportunity to create a better product (cine FF35) and sell it in a completely untouched market.

As Tom points out the only thing will be lack of FF35 lenses. I agree with that, but would add physics.
Physics because I'm sure lens/camera manufacturers will be able to provide tools for more accurate focus pulling in less DOF...but like wringles in HD, hitting marks will be paramount. Unlike wringles , they'll be harder to cover up. More focus errors will appear (hopefully downrezzing will help a little) and poor focus on FF35 shoots will be a problem but I think it'll improve. Kinda 2 steps forwards, one step back.
So throughout all this S35/FF35 frame war will be...availability of new high quality FF35 lenses. What's not to like...will except redundant S35 lenses that is. So will R1 owners experience similiar pain non Red owners have/are. Well not if you stick with Jim's upgrade path, which I will...
The only thing is I'll have to cherry pick what Red milestones I buy into. Buying a set of lenses at Ultra prime quality has come down 75% in price so it'll be interesting to see how their life span also reduces.

D

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm going to agree with Tom here. FF35 is going to hold a lot of benefits, some probably unforseen. As optics improve along with tools to assist focus and exposure, the attractiveness of the format will increase. But the format I really see taking off for creative / narrative film production is actually 6x45 (as in EPIC 645). It's huge for motion picture work, nearly as big as 15/70 IMAX (OK, not quite that big, it's only 63% of an IMAX frame). But I see this camera offering some real appeal as the market evolves over the next few years. Currently 3D is all the rage (again) and this time around, the 3D experience is very enjoyable for many animated features, some action, horror, adventure stuff and some other applications. But I really don't see it applying to all genres. I really enjoyed the IMAX sequences in The Dark Knight and I think that's just a taste of what is to come for many other films looking to offer increased visual impact without traveling the 3D route.

FWIW, the EPIC 617 is going to be an amazing tool as well. It's slightly taller (about 3.4mm) than an IMAX frame and nearly 2.5 times as wide. With all that resolution and 3:1 aspect ratio, it's going to have applications ranging from large format advertising, FX work, panoramic cinema and photography etc.. Like Ian, I will shoot a film in 28K as well. I will be buying either the EPIC 617 or 645. I don't think I can swing both, but a lot will depend on availability timing and what I feel I can accomplish the most with.

 

[Joel Kaye]

And so to me, it's a total no-brainer. FF35 is the way of the future.

If focusing is tougher with Full Frame there's no way I'm switching. I've got 6 inches of DOF now in a lot of cases. I'm not going to willingly shrink that.


I can see it being the future - Maybe when ISO 6400 and F8 is easy to get indoors. It takes A LOT of light to get to F/5.6 as it is now. 645? Gimme a break. How much light would you need to track a medium shot of someone walking? Bigger frames will be awesome for daylight scenic shots though. Perhaps people will switch formats between outdoor daylight and interior tungsten.

Only Hollywood can really light a whole room evenly up to F8 and that would probably get pretty weird for the actors and crew.

RED needs more ISO and Latitude long before it needs 645.

 

[david farland]

Monstros could be rated at 800 asa...giving another 1.5 stops.
D

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah, I think we are all assuming (hopefully!) to see some major gains in ISO/ASA with Monstro.

And of course, with FF35, you always have the option of putting on S35 lenses. The opposite is not true with an S35 brain.

 

[tj williams]

MY PREDICTION:
1. Vista vision depth of field comes to the indy camera asst. To be followed by a raise in the suicide rate among these young relatively inexperienced softies.

2. Lighting to T8 becomes commonplace incidence of heat stroke on set increases "drama"tically.

3. RED having not worked on the dynamic range problem, while facination with increased resolution, film is still widely used in exterior work and other high contrast environments. Panavision with their multiple sensitivity sensors steals a march on RED.

4. Audiences watching 2K theatre projection and HD as low as 720 resolution are unaware of the sparkling clarity of the images as seen in the dailies!

 

[david farland]

There is about 2 stops 'difference' in depth of field between using a s35 camera and ff35 camera.

for example...these two setup will have same FOV & DOF,
S35/50mm/f5.6 / 4 feet = 6 in (depth of field)
FF35/80mm/f11 / 4 feet = 6 in (depth of field)

So if Red increased the sensitivity of their monstros by 2 stops, i.e, 320-> 1250 (they won't) all is forgiven.
Increasing the sensitivity of the FF35 monstro by only 1 stop reduces the above depth of field to 3 inches.

another example of same FOV only...
S35/50mm/f5.6 / 10 feet = 3.5 ft (depth of field)
FF35/80mm/f8 / 10 feet = 2.3 ft (depth of field)
645 /135mm/f8 / 10 feet = 1.1 ft (depth of field)

Not great i know. I expect there will be a similiar reduction in DOF moving from the R1 to the s35 Epic as moving from the s35 Epic to the FF35 Epic.
Obviously DOF for AC's will more of a problem. Maybe there'll just be some focus pulls most people won't be able to do anymore.

Also would love to hear one of those ''don't fear...Red are awake' on this one.

So do people think FF35 will become mainstream or not?

Dave

 

[Liam Hall]

Also, is this a beginning on the convergence of cine/still formats?

That's already started with the Canon 5D and Nikon D90.

The effect on the industry can already be seen in the number of newbies coming into the game. With lighter, cheaper cameras that are easy to use every Tom, Dick and Harry will think they're a moviemaker. Take a look on any of the main photography sites and you'll see people posting videos and exclaiming they are thinking of pursuing it as a career. In reality, some of the newbies will be great and some wont - just like those already in the industry.

I can see a place for FF35 in commercials and music video, but I see S35 remaining the dominant format in features and TV drama for some time to come.

Oddly, I think the documentary and corporate sectors will embrace FF35 the quickest - particularly for interviews where a shallow DOF can really help.

In general though my predictions for the FF35 age are lots of inappropriate usage of shallow depth of field and lots of comments like, "nice bokek" posted on internet sites.

It should be fun...

 

[Humberto Rivera]

My Thoughts

My Thoughts

The brains of the S35-X and S35 both have a 30mm X 15mm sensor size. The RPPs, the Master Primes, and the Optimo DP 16mm X 42mm and the Optimo DP 30mm X 80mm all cover at least a 31mm diameter with quality in the glass. So for all purposes they cover the R1 as well as the S35-X in exactly the same manner in a 16:9 frame size (and a 1.85 size).

Obviously on the S35 they cover a larger amount of the sensor, and thus a-heir resolution. When a 4K Inter Negative is made, it’s made to a-heir resolution that one from an R1.

So, the DOF which is rather important to provide the “look” of film that we become accustomed to be maintain. All that “high-quality-glass” that currently exist at lower T-stop can continue to be used. The extra T-stop, and of course the evolutionary version of the camera, it’s really a “no-brainer”.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Tom Lowe]

for example...these two setup will have same FOV & DOF,
S35/50mm/f5.6 / 4 feet = 6 in (depth of field)
FF35/80mm/f11 / 4 feet = 6 in (depth of field)

David, what sensor size are you using for S35? When you lay the numbers out like this, it's a little daunting. Then again, if you're shooting 6K RAW and finishing at 4K or 2K, for example, you will have plenty of resolution to kill off any noise that might arise from shooting at higher ISO/ASA ratings. With a RAW Bayer camera, the spatial resolution vs final master resolution is extremely important for noise reduction purposes.

So you are left with either A) stopping down and boosting sensitivity or B) hiring a Jedi focus puller who is strong with the Force.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If you just base focal length choice on horizontal view, not the diagonal (which is affected by the aspect ratio) you'd think the difference between S35 and FF35 would be 1.5X (24mm wide vs. 36mm wide), which generally works out to be 1.5-stop difference in practical DOF once you match FOV, distance, and stop but change the focal length. FF35 is not twice as big as S35, so it shouldn't be a 2-stop difference in DOF behavior.

 

[Tim Lüdin]

Who ever shot some quick and dirty video with his/her Canon 5D2 will be hooked be the idea to shoot an Epic FF in the near future. I am.
That little f..ing canon makes me happy when ever I shoot some video stuff with it. The DOF ist just to nice to be true.
I think Jim knows that or saw it in his lab that this will be the future.
Now think the new RED code, 13+ stops of DR and a FF sensor to put all the nice nikon, canon (1.2) or the new RED lenses on it.
This will be super killer. I can see it on my 5D2 allready.
Now think RED Team and you know whats coming.

Crazy times. But goooooood.:thumbsup:

 

[Tom Lowe]

Who ever shot some quick and dirty video with his/her Canon 5D2 will be hooked be the idea to shoot an Epic FF in the near future. I am.
That little f..ing canon makes me happy when ever I shoot some video stuff with it. The DOF ist just to nice to be true.
I think Jim knows that or saw it in his lab that this will be the future.
Now think the new RED code, 13+ stops of DR and a FF sensor to put all the nice nikon, canon (1.2) or the new RED lenses on it.
This will be super killer. I can see it on my 5D2 allready.
Now think RED Team and you know whats coming.

Crazy times. But goooooood.:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

S35--> :violent5: <--FF35

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Hmmm, wait until you try to follow-focus during a fast dolly into an ECU of an actor at T/2.8 on your FF35 camera... :crying: That DOF that is "too nice to be true" suddenly becomes, well, not so nice. Super shallow focus is pretty in images, especially still ones, but it's not always practical in the day-to-day reality of following actors around in tight shots. I'm doing a D.I. right now for a S35 movie, and looking at some focus problems on the big screen makes me wonder if I should have lit everything to a T/4.0 at least...

 

[Tom Lowe]

David, this will not be a problem, as I have already begun grooming a new focus-puller who can "see things before they happen"...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, wait until your Jedi focus-puller realizes what salary she could demand with that talent...