Workflow advice needed for a FCP music video

[Jonathan Bregel]

What is the best way for a low budget music video to edit in FCP, color correct, and output in 1080 or 2k? We would like to be able to color correct the actual RAW R3d files as opposed to just color correcting in FCP. We were thinking either, RedCine or possibly Color.

We have been reading a lot on these forums but there are just so many different possible workflows that it gets quite confusing.

I have read some interesting things about the Crimson workflow but I'm not sure if it would be the best option or not. It's a music video and I'm sure it will have hundreds of cuts and plenty of effects so we need the most viable and cost effective option. We are also on a strict timeline and basically need the cut completed by next Sat(May 23rd).

The editor has a Mac Pro with a Quad Core but is new to the red workflow.

Any advice on what workflow we should go with would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for you time.

 

[NateWeaver]

I suggest having FCP do a Log & Transfer of everything to ProRes (time permitting).

Do your cut, and then re-ingest everything again using the "native" method. Reconnect to native media and then send to Color.

FX shots will need their own attack, so I'll defer to FX guys on the board as to how those shots should be rendered and sent out. But for a video without FX, the above is how I'd do things.

 

[joe hedge]

I suggest having FCP do a Log & Transfer of everything to ProRes (time permitting).

Time being a factor, use RedRushes (which is multi-processor aware - FCP, and therefore FCP Log & Transfer, is not) to do the transcodes.

 

[NateWeaver]

Time being a factor, use RedRushes (which is multi-processor aware - FCP, and therefore FCP Log & Transfer, is not) to do the transcodes.

You might run into reconnect issues if you use RedRushes. FCP knows it's ProRes media from L&T....you can do a media manage after offline and only re-bring-in via native the media used in the cut.

Also, my tests have L&T using all processors, I thought. At the very least, my timings for the two mthods have been similar.

 

[joe hedge]

You might run into reconnect issues if you use RedRushes. FCP knows it's ProRes media from L&T....you can do a media manage after offline and only re-bring-in via native the media used in the cut.

Also, my tests have L&T using all processors, I thought. At the very least, my timings for the two mthods have been similar.

Don't use FCP Media Manager. That's what ClipFinder is for (among other things). Export XML of sequence to ClipFinder to switch clip names to the _H proxys, and roll in Color with that. You're talking about the "Native" L&T workflow - all that does is create new proxies and copies the r3d's to a different directory. Why do that when you already have the proxies the camera made?

FCP does not use more than 2 cores so if you have a 4 or 8 core MacPro use RR to transcode.

Also check your RedCode prefs in your System Prefs - you can't get more than a half-high debayer using L&T. RR will do a full-res debayer that you can scale down to 2k, which if you're not going back to the r3d's for output makes a difference.

 

[NateWeaver]

Were talking about two completely different approaches. I just figured I'd share what's worked for me on 4-5 vids.

 

[Ben Holmes]

I'm with Nate, especially if you're new to this. The debayering offered by FCP is neither here nor there, as you will be reconnecting the native files for use in Color.

Don't overcomplicate this, or feel the need to use (albeit simple and reliable) third party software. Follow the steps in the FCP Whitepaper included with the FCP installer on RED support. Use the ProRes imports to edit (it's the most satisfying experience) and then reconnect to 'native' to use the R3Ds in Color. The results are excellent. You do not really have to use the Media Mangler (sorry - Manager) as there is no transcoding for the native reconnect, but it's an interesting approach.

Good luck - if you've experience of FCP and Color, you'll love the results. Note that Color needs a nice clean timeline for import - and has problems with speed changes particularly. If the FCP assemble is complicated, consider sending an 'assemble' edit to Color for CC, then after sending it back to FCP, finish the edit as required with the CC'd footage.

 

[JD Marlow]

I would agree with the simplicity of having L&T, then media managing to import RedCode Native material.

For those FX shots, keep in mind that you will have to create self-contained clips with those effects "baked" in to be able to work in COLOR. Thus, you will not have access to the RED Metadata in COLOR that you will for anything without an effect that is REDCODE NATIVE.

 

[joe hedge]

For those FX shots, keep in mind that you will have to create self-contained clips with those effects "baked" in to be able to work in COLOR. Thus, you will not have access to the RED Metadata in COLOR that you will for anything without an effect that is REDCODE NATIVE.

Sorry if I seem a little obtuse here, I'm trying to learn by bouncing ideas off people...if the effects shots can't be graded in Color as r3d's, then it makes sense to me to avoid grading the r3d's altogether and simply create the best quality transcodes you can (full res debayers in RedRushes) and grade those. If simplicity is a goal then surely that would be simpler than grading the r3d's, which you can't do to the effects shots as r3d's anyway.

 

[Jonathan Bregel]

Ok, this is all great info, thanks.

It sounds like going through Color would be an absolute nightmare for this video (effects heavy) so at this point we are looking to avoid that route.

We are beginning to believe we should just do 90% of our color correction in RedCine and then touch it up within Final Cut.

What's the best way to do that? Time is probably our biggest factor at this point but we also don't want to sacrifice a ton of quality.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[M Most]

We are beginning to believe we should just do 90% of our color correction in RedCine and then touch it up within Final Cut.

What's the best way to do that? Time is probably our biggest factor at this point but we also don't want to sacrifice a ton of quality.

You haven't asked the first question you should be asking: what are you delivering?

 

[Jonathan Bregel]

You haven't asked the first question you should be asking: what are you delivering?

1080

and some type of h.264 for the web as well.

 

[M Most]

1080

and some type of h.264 for the web as well.

That's not enough for good advice. 1920x1080 on what? Some sort of file format? Videotape? Is it for projection? Viewing on video monitors?

All of these things matter because they help to determine what standards you need to meet. That in turn determines what kind of monitoring you need to do that. And that in turn determines what software can be used, because not all software can be set to display on proper external monitoring.

 

[Jonathan Bregel]

That's not enough for good advice. 1920x1080 on what? Some sort of file format? Videotape? Is it for projection? Viewing on video monitors?

All of these things matter because they help to determine what standards you need to meet. That in turn determines what kind of monitoring you need to do that. And that in turn determines what software can be used, because not all software can be set to display on proper external monitoring.

It's for broadcast. It's going on MTV, FUSE and such. The label is requesting all digital files, 1080, and something for the good web playback. We have been trying to get a hold of the label for the specifics but they haven't gotten back to us.

 

[M Most]

It's for broadcast. It's going on MTV, FUSE and such. The label is requesting all digital files, 1080, and something for the good web playback. We have been trying to get a hold of the label for the specifics but they haven't gotten back to us.

That is much more specific.

Any color work you do needs to be monitored on a proper Rec709 monitor in order to mean anything for the product you send to MTV. That means that Redcine can only be used for preliminary work because you can't view Redcine's output on anything other than your computer monitor. It also means that there is not much point in going back to original R3d files. You're probably best off transcoding to ProRes using the Redspace color matrix and either the Rec709 or Redlog gamma setting (Rec709 will get you much closer to a "normal" look without any additional color correction, though). If you want to set up some preliminary color in either Redcine or Red Alert when you do this, that would be fine as long as you avoid clipping or crushing. Once you get into editorial, you should be monitoring using a proper video output card (Kona 3, Blackmagic, some kind of HD-SDI card) feeding into a proper video monitor. This will let you see what they'll see. Any color correction you want to do can be done in either Final Cut or Color (should be straightforward to send the finished time line to Color if everything is already Prores), but you should also consider bringing the finished piece to a professional colorist to do a polishing pass once you're done, both for artistic and technical reasons (a pro colorist will have scopes to ensure that you're within legal limits). It would be an hour or two well spent. Keeping things simple - i.e., making everything ProRes - will allow you to concentrate on what you're doing and not be bothered with all kinds of thoughts about how to finish it. Transcoding using the settings I mentioned will pretty much ensure that you're not really losing any information, and if you have a few clipped shots, just go back and reconvert them with a little less exposure.

Good luck.

 

[jake blackstone]

That is much more specific.

Any color work you do needs to be monitored on a proper Rec709 monitor in order to mean anything for the product you send to MTV. That means that Redcine can only be used for preliminary work because you can't view Redcine's output on anything other than your computer monitor. It also means that there is not much point in going back to original R3d files. You're probably best off transcoding to ProRes using the Redspace color matrix and either the Rec709 or Redlog gamma setting (Rec709 will get you much closer to a "normal" look without any additional color correction, though). If you want to set up some preliminary color in either Redcine or Red Alert when you do this, that would be fine as long as you avoid clipping or crushing. Once you get into editorial, you should be monitoring using a proper video output card (Kona 3, Blackmagic, some kind of HD-SDI card) feeding into a proper video monitor. This will let you see what they'll see. Any color correction you want to do can be done in either Final Cut or Color (should be straightforward to send the finished time line to Color if everything is already Prores), but you should also consider bringing the finished piece to a professional colorist to do a polishing pass once you're done, both for artistic and technical reasons (a pro colorist will have scopes to ensure that you're within legal limits). It would be an hour or two well spent. Keeping things simple - i.e., making everything ProRes - will allow you to concentrate on what you're doing and not be bothered with all kinds of thoughts about how to finish it. Transcoding using the settings I mentioned will pretty much ensure that you're not really losing any information, and if you have a few clipped shots, just go back and reconvert them with a little less exposure.

Good luck.

I'm not surprised, that MTV is OK with compressed deliverable master, but I would double check. This delivery form becomes more prevalent with every passing day, but in my experience, some of broadcast deliverables (Warner Bros. NBC/Universal etc) still require an HD sized 8 or 10 bit uncompressed. Prores route wouldn't work in that case...

 

[M Most]

I'm not surprised, that MTV is OK with compressed deliverable master, but I would double check. This delivery form becomes more prevalent with every passing day, but in my experience, some of broadcast deliverables (Warner Bros. NBC/Universal etc) still require an HD sized 8 or 10 bit uncompressed. Prores route wouldn't work in that case...

Sure it would. If they need an uncompressed delivery, output it uncompressed. Or play it out to SR tape. The days of purity in terms of compression are long gone. I can name (I won't, but I can) at least 2 network dramas and 2 high end cable dramas that are posted using compressed files and delivered as HDCam SR tape. At least two are completely posted in DNxHD115 (yes, 115, not 175). Another is posted in ProRes (not HQ). If anyone thinks that high end material demands uncompressed material through the post process today in order to be acceptable, they are simply mistaken. I'm not saying whether or not I think this is a good trend, but it is fact.

 

[Jonathan Bregel]

Ha ok well guys I need you to understand something now. I'm not an editor, I do edit but I don't consider myself an editor. A lot of this info you guys are throwing around I somewhat grasp but this is definitely not my area. I'm just trying to help our editor figure out the best workflow for this project since he is new to red workflow.

If you all could keep the explanations simple I'd appreciate it. Here is where I'm at now, some of the footage is 1-2 stops underexposed, I want to be able to bring up the levels and color correct using the raw files. I'm not familiar enough with Color and like I said we will have tons of effects so Color is simply not realistic for our project(from my understanding). That is why I'm trying to figure out how to do 90% of our CC in Red Cine and then finish up in final cut. Unfortunately at this point I don't have time to do a bunch of tests I just need to pick a workflow and roll with it.

Again your posts are appreciated!

 

[jake blackstone]

Ha ok well guys I need you to understand something now. I'm not an editor, I do edit but I don't consider myself an editor. A lot of this info you guys are throwing around I somewhat grasp but this is definitely not my area. I'm just trying to help our editor figure out the best workflow for this project since he is new to red workflow.

If you all could keep the explanations simple I'd appreciate it. Here is where I'm at now, some of the footage is 1-2 stops underexposed, I want to be able to bring up the levels and color correct using the raw files. I'm not familiar enough with Color and like I said we will have tons of effects so Color is simply not realistic for our project(from my understanding). That is why I'm trying to figure out how to do 90% of our CC in Red Cine and then finish up in final cut. Unfortunately at this point I don't have time to do a bunch of tests I just need to pick a workflow and roll with it.

Again your posts are appreciated!

Are you sure you're underexposed? It's possible you're not using the proper color space LUT. If you not using the proper LUT, the image will APPEAR underexposed...

 

[M Most]

That is why I'm trying to figure out how to do 90% of our CC in Red Cine and then finish up in final cut.

Redcine is not a color corrector. It's a RAW converter that has some basic color controls. You cannot do most of the things one would want to do in a color grading session in Redcine. There are no area or color isolations, no secondary corrections of any kind, no separate luminance controls. There are simply exposure and basic balance settings because that's what it's designed for. If you have severely underexposed footage, you can bring it up prior to conversion using Redcine, but quite frankly, underexposed Red footage is usually not pretty. However, if you're going to "save" it, doing that in Redcine is probably your best shot.

If you want real, creative color choices, you need to use software that provides the tools to do that. Color is one such program, Final Cut has some capabilities. The need for that depends on what you shot vs. what you want. If you shot images that represent what you wanted to see, you should be in pretty good shape with the basic transcodes I've already suggested. If you are going to do radical color changes, you'll need to use software that allows you to do that cleanly. One option is to use Color up front instead of Redcine. Load all of the footage into Color and render to Prores. Or, as I also suggested, finish it with basic settings and bring the finished piece to a colorist - which I still think is, by far, the best way to handle this given the conditions you're describing.

Just my opinion.