FCP to REDCINE to DPX

[ScottL.]

On a project where we're trying deliver 10bit 2K DPX to third party colorist and I'm unclear as to the shortcomings/workflow of this process. We're cutting our Pro Res 422 HQ and are planning on conforming R3D in REDCINE using either Crimson or ClipFinder, then outputting to DPX from there... And trying to preserve as much color latitude for colorists as possible...

Anyone know what is lost in this? Can resizing, retiming be done in RED CINE either automatically or manually? Are the DPX files we export going to be referencing the R3D RAW properly or will they run into any additional color/white/brightness barriers where they're being limited?

Any help much appreciated!

 

[ScottL.]

sry, forgot to say we will be coloring in Log space for filmout....

 

[Emery Wells]

Once you go to DPX you leave RED RAW world which means all the metadata that is exploitable in RedCine is no longer available. White balance, ASA, color space settings, etc are all exclusive to working RAW.

You should do your scaling/ pan & scan in redcine (yes it can be done) while taking full advantage of the 4K resolution. You can still do that with the DPX sequences but you'll be limited to 2k resolution at that point so any transforms will cause image degradation. Recine cannot handle speed changes so you'll want to transfer all the media necessary to recreate the speed changes in the online.

To retain maximum latitude you should apply the redlog LUT to the footage and render out 10bit DPX log. This will essentially retain the full 12bit linear image in a 10bit logarithmic file.

 

[jake blackstone]

On a project where we're trying deliver 10bit 2K DPX to third party colorist and I'm unclear as to the shortcomings/workflow of this process. We're cutting our Pro Res 422 HQ and are planning on conforming R3D in REDCINE using either Crimson or ClipFinder, then outputting to DPX from there... And trying to preserve as much color latitude for colorists as possible...

Anyone know what is lost in this? Can resizing, retiming be done in RED CINE either automatically or manually? Are the DPX files we export going to be referencing the R3D RAW properly or will they run into any additional color/white/brightness barriers where they're being limited?

Any help much appreciated!

Why wouldn't you just give an EDL and R3D files to the colorist and let him to do the rest? That how my clients would do it. And no, there is no charge for this extra service of DPX transcode

 

[Emery Wells]

Jake what facility are you working at that does not charge to transcode to DPX? Im gonna start outsourcing

 

[ScottL.]

Why wouldn't you just give an EDL and R3D files to the colorist and let him to do the rest? That how my clients would do it. And no, there is no charge for this extra service of DPX transcode

If you can tell me what facility will assemble our R3D files for free, I would love to know where... The facilities that I deal with charge very high editorial / data management fees for that... something I'm trying to avoid to give us more color time...

Thanks guys... anyone else have ideas on this?

 

[M Most]

If you can tell me what facility will assemble our R3D files for free, I would love to know where... The facilities that I deal with charge very high editorial / data management fees for that... something I'm trying to avoid to give us more color time...

Thanks guys... anyone else have ideas on this?

Nobody is going to conform your DPX's for free, either. So unless you have some way of loading the EDL, linking it to the DPX's, playing the resulting timeline against the offline cut, making adjustments when needed, and creating all transitions and other effects, you're going to have to pay something for the facility to do this for you. There will also be some costs for the file copying time, and quite frankly, you'll likely be copying a lot less material if you go the R3d route than you will if you go the DPX route. But either way, the reality is that conforming is a necessary step regardless of what you bring them.

The bottom line is that you're thinking that you're going to save costs by transcoding to DPX yourself. But your thinking is clouded by a lack of experience and a lack of knowledge as to how DI projects are done. You really need to talk to whatever facility is going to be finishing this for you and ask questions as to what they prefer, what the costs will be, and what will work best within their specific systems, rather than guess as to what those answers are.

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake what facility are you working at that does not charge to transcode to DPX? Im gonna start outsourcing

It's my own place and I do not charge for the DPX transcode, but only, if I also do the grading. Just to be clear, I do not charge for transcoding, conforming, data management, data storage, ingest, render, data copying, coffee, tea... The only charge is for the grading time, period. So, please go ahead and send the work my way

 

[jake blackstone]

If you can tell me what facility will assemble our R3D files for free, I would love to know where... The facilities that I deal with charge very high editorial / data management fees for that... something I'm trying to avoid to give us more color time...

Thanks guys... anyone else have ideas on this?

Yes, I will do it for free, but only if I do the grading as well

 

[jake blackstone]

Nobody is going to conform your DPX's for free, either. So unless you have some way of loading the EDL, linking it to the DPX's, playing the resulting timeline against the offline cut, making adjustments when needed, and creating all transitions and other effects, you're going to have to pay something for the facility to do this for you. There will also be some costs for the file copying time, and quite frankly, you'll likely be copying a lot less material if you go the R3d route than you will if you go the DPX route. But either way, the reality is that conforming is a necessary step regardless of what you bring them.

The bottom line is that you're thinking that you're going to save costs by transcoding to DPX yourself. But your thinking is clouded by a lack of experience and a lack of knowledge as to how DI projects are done. You really need to talk to whatever facility is going to be finishing this for you and ask questions as to what they prefer, what the costs will be, and what will work best within their specific systems, rather than guess as to what those answers are.

I couldn't agree more. It is also needs to be said, that the DPX transcode is essentially a "one light" grade pass. If r3d to DPX transcode has been done incorrectly and as a result information is lost (crushed blacks, cut off highlights, wrong color space and gamma etc) then no amount of final grading will be able to correct it. And I'm not even talking about the extra grading time and costs, that it would take to try to match the shots in the final grade from someone else's "one light" grading. Just do the edit, generate EDL and let someone else do the conform and grade from original files...

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

On a project where we're trying deliver 10bit 2K DPX to third party colorist and I'm unclear as to the shortcomings/workflow of this process. We're cutting our Pro Res 422 HQ and are planning on conforming R3D in REDCINE using either Crimson or ClipFinder, then outputting to DPX from there... And trying to preserve as much color latitude for colorists as possible...

Anyone know what is lost in this? Can resizing, retiming be done in RED CINE either automatically or manually? Are the DPX files we export going to be referencing the R3D RAW properly or will they run into any additional color/white/brightness barriers where they're being limited?

Any help much appreciated!

I've done this several times... you can use Crimson or Monkey Extract. Monkey has a great feature in that it can modify your DPX headers and your CMX 3600 EDL to create separate reel id's for each DPX sequence folder. This is very helpful to the colorist, probably working on Luster, Smoke or possibly Pablo. It allows them to see your shots in contextual order when they CC. Crimson works too, so far that is still my tool of choice.

As you probably know, you will need to make a sequence in FCP that is all one layer, has all speed effects and filters removed. Make sure it includes all of your content (frames) that make it into the final cut. I always add 1 second handles too.

Move this to Crimson via XML and then to Redcine. Set up your target project size, in this case 2k, then apply a scale or crop as needed to all your clips. If your simply scaling it all from 4k to 2k, then you can select all, then scale to fit width. All your clips will scale. Set up your color and gamma space per the colorists instructions.

In the output area, make sure you select separate folders, so each shot will fall into it's own directory. DPX 10 bit, full processing (debayer). Hit render.

What it spits out, along with the CMX edl you need to create from FCP is what the colorist will want.

To re-conform the dpx sequences you will get back, you will need to use a wrapping utility like AJA's DPX to Qt utility or Glue Tools. Glue Tools has been wildly inconsistent for me so I don't really recommend that.

Good luck and happy transcoding/conforming.

 

[Emery Wells]

It's my own place and I do not charge for the DPX transcode, but only, if I also do the grading. Just to be clear, I do not charge for transcoding, conforming, data management, data storage, ingest, render, data copying, coffee, tea... The only charge is for the grading time, period. So, please go ahead and send the work my way

Building it into the cost of grading is not 'doing it for free.' Whether you are charging for each individual thing or just padding your other fees, its all a wash in the end. Billing for these kinds of services is hardly an exact science anyway. It all comes down to how much time it takes you to do something and how much that amount of time is worth to your facility.

So what kind of grading system are you running? If it's Scratch then like all facilities running Scratch, we arent charging anything extra for walking in with R3D files

 

[jake blackstone]

Building it into the cost of grading is not 'doing it for free.' Whether you are charging for each individual thing or just padding your other fees, its all a wash in the end. Billing for these kinds of services is hardly an exact science anyway. It all comes down to how much time it takes you to do something and how much that amount of time is worth to your facility.

So what kind of grading system are you running? If it's Scratch then like all facilities running Scratch, we arent charging anything extra for walking in with R3D files

I quote my price per hour right upfront, so there is no "padding". I think anyone would agree, that per item charge price structure is much more conducive to padding of the bill. I had worked in post production for close to 30 years and I'm very familiar with the usual way of billing client for everything, including vault storage, bill preparation, prepared lunch, dinner delivery etc. My clients know, what they'll pay for the grading even before the session, so how's that "padding"? I do not cast dispersions on other post places and their price structure. My price is as simple as it can possibly be and my clients appreciate it. They also appreciate the fact, that they are not nickel and dimed to death. BTW, I use Lustre for final grade, so your second point doesn't apply also. RED camera had created a new business model for the image acquisition. Isn't it finally time to do the same in color grading?

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Anyone know what is lost in this? Can resizing, retiming be done in RED CINE either automatically or manually? Are the DPX files we export going to be referencing the R3D RAW properly or will they run into any additional color/white/brightness barriers where they're being limited?
Any help much appreciated!

The bottom line is that you're thinking that you're going to save costs by transcoding to DPX yourself. But your thinking is clouded by a lack of experience and a lack of knowledge as to how DI projects are done. You really need to talk to whatever facility is going to be finishing this for you and ask questions as to what they prefer, what the costs will be, and what will work best within their specific systems, rather than guess as to what those answers are.

Although I agree with Mike... Its better to answer your original question...

Use RedLog in Camera RGB with exposure in -1 to -1.5, this will result in almost Cineon Log. We have numerous times use these settings and always work very good. Log encoding is retaining all color info so its no problem with this workflow... the rest is as others suggested...

On the other hand we offer consulting for DIY color grading and filmout in LOG with calibrated process...

 

[Emery Wells]

I quote my price per hour right upfront, so there is no "padding". I think anyone would agree, that per item charge price structure is much more conducive to padding of the bill. I had worked in post production for close to 30 years and I'm very familiar with the usual way of billing client for everything, including vault storage, bill preparation, prepared lunch, dinner delivery etc. My clients know, what they'll pay for the grading even before the session, so how's that "padding"? I do not cast dispersions on other post places and their price structure. My price is as simple as it can possibly be and my clients appreciate it. They also appreciate the fact, that they are not nickel and dimed to death. BTW, I use Lustre for final grade, so your second point doesn't apply also. RED camera had created a new business model for the image acquisition. Isn't it finally time to do the same in color grading?

We need to start our own thread where we can argue business practices When I say 'pad' I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean that you've thought about all the little things and built it into your cost structure which indeed makes it simple for the clients. As a new company, we're thinking about our cost structure all the time. I've found in the 'simple' way you often wind up shooting yourself in the foot. Breaking out the little stuff protects you and ensures you are getting paid for the work you are doing.

For a shop like yours who has invested in a Lustre I think it's smart that you aren't charging extra for dealing with RED footage because if you were, your client may be inclined to go to the next shop down the street who is using a Scratch. Certainly the extra DPX step takes time, as do all the little things such as food, deliveries, etc. That stuff can add up.

Some facilities barely break things down at all. I've seen quotes that have 2 line items and a total. This certainly makes the bidding process easier for the producers and frankly Im a fan of this method although we still break everything out pretty granularly at this point.

 

[jake blackstone]

We need to start our own thread where we can argue business practices When I say 'pad' I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean that you've thought about all the little things and built it into your cost structure which indeed makes it simple for the clients. As a new company, we're thinking about our cost structure all the time. I've found in the 'simple' way you often wind up shooting yourself in the foot. Breaking out the little stuff protects you and ensures you are getting paid for the work you are doing.

For a shop like yours who has invested in a Lustre I think it's smart that you aren't charging extra for dealing with RED footage because if you were, your client may be inclined to go to the next shop down the street who is using a Scratch. Certainly the extra DPX step takes time, as do all the little things such as food, deliveries, etc. That stuff can add up.

Some facilities barely break things down at all. I've seen quotes that have 2 line items and a total. This certainly makes the bidding process easier for the producers and frankly Im a fan of this method although we still break everything out pretty granularly at this point.

Of coarse once in a while, I do end up not even braking even on the job, but there are no guarantees in life anyway. Frankly, most of the reasonable clients will meet you half way, when it is apparent, that they had made a mistake and all of a sudden, there are seven versions instead of two. It's called overages and everyone in production is very familiar with the term. And sometimes you just have to eat it...
I already had a conversation in another thread about the merits of Scratch grading vs. Lustre or for that matter, any other color grading solutions. In my opinion, this choice mainly based on colorist's personal preferences or financial considerations. Some colorists are die hard DaVinci users, some are Baselight and, yes, some prefer Scratch. To me it's a simple matter which tools will meet my needs. If Color does the job, great. It is very capable software with some high end features, but PERSONALLY I would not use it for a finish, especially on a feature. I just happen to prefer Lustre tool set or for this matter Baselight, for the final grade. And that is why I personally prefer to finish in Lustre with DPX transcode vs Scratch and r3d, but not that I couldn't do it in Scratch
Back to the free vs, paid service. I wish everyone would stop hiding behind per item charge and just move toward charging per hour of actual grade, then producers would have much easier time deciding on the value of the bid. Said that, you still have to deliver the quality. Even, while doing it for free

 

[Rob Nairn]

Scaling DPX files in redcine

Scaling DPX files in redcine

=
You should do your scaling/ pan & scan in redcine (yes it can be done) while taking full advantage of the 4K resolution.

Hello,
When you say it can be done, do you mean setting a smaller format in the projects tab, then scaling a clip appropriately in the shot tab?

Anyone know why you can use the format frame size settings in the output tab for quicktime only?

Thanks,
Rob