FCP has nothing on Vegas 9?

[Roberto Lequeux]

Thank you for reading this. :beer:

With Red Rocket announced, I am trying to see if Sony Vegas has (MUCH) longer legs than I thought. I could have posted this on the Vegas thread but I thought it would be best if other NLE users took part.

I would sincerely appreciate your input and guidance as I try to figure out how much the landscape has shifted. I am not so concerned with the popularity of the NLE as I am with its ability to do what I need it to do.

So, considering the new features in Vegas 9 (LINK) I would love it if I could get some help to see if I am seeing things correctly, and that I am not dreaming on regards of what the Red Code - Vegas 9 workflow might be like.

Here is some new info I am considering, in my current interpretation:
A. V9 will process grading at true 32-bit floating.
B. V9 will handle .r3d native with full metadata support.
C. V9 will be able to do anything REDCine/others could in terms of color.
D. On dual Nehalem Xeon RAM-packed stations, Vegas 9 will handle 1080p RGB uncompressed grading -RT- with ease.
E. Red Rocket will provide RGB 1080/2k/4k Real time from 5k footage.
F. Using Kona/other, V9 will output to say a 25.5 1920 x 1200 Panasonic properly (and at 10-bit?).
G. Vegas 9 will render out 4k.

This is what I am thinking and wondering if there are any holes in my thought process:
1. Will there be no significant drawbacks to grading in Vagas opposed to grading on something like Color, even Scratch at 1080? Other than the interface, and speed of the system? True 32-bit floating sounds like the best available in my humble understanding... so would the only thing to miss be the bigger color wheels etc on the screen? Hardware control surfaces? I obviously suppose there will be more to what something like current Scratch would have over the new Vegas 9... but what is it?

2. It seems that on a dual Xeon, packed with RAM, with a Red Rocket and a Kona type card... that I would be able to master for Blu-Ray 1080 with virtually zero drawbacks. I'd be able to judge color accurately, and use a better monitor than the 25.5 Panasonic if someone felt the need.

3. Then for finishing by a pro grader I could either render an uncompressed 4k RGB, broken up into scenes if necessary.

4. This one is a straight up question: Would there be a way to bring an EDL with color decisions to a post house without having to render an uncompressed RGB? To somehow keep it as .r3d's... am EDL + CDL...

Thanks for the help! I would love to understand this better. And for those who wonder why I would consider Vegas at all, just look at what people say about the audio and the interface. I love Vegas... and hopefully one day I won't need to defend that... I just hope that day is May 11th, when V9 comes out.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Can't comment until FCS3 is released.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Can't comment until FCS3 is released.

Well yes, but Vegas 9 isn't either. Pure speculation shmeculation here. :thumbsup:

 

[Joe Carney]

I think when the 64bit version of FCS comes out, it will mop the floor with the competition. Just before NAB I briefly talked to a guy from Apple. It's currently in final beta. Vegas is great and will continue to gain market share, but against the new FCS, not sure it can compete in the feature movie market. But, we shall see.

 

[Glenn Thomas]

I think when the 64bit version of FCS comes out, it will mop the floor with the competition.

Regardless of whatever new features FCS has, it's the workflow that people generally like the most about Vegas. Personally, if I was ever forced to give up Vegas and edit using another system such as FCS, Avid, etc, I would no longer be editing video.

 

[Joe Carney]

Yes, the workflow is very good, but it's the tight integration of advanced audio with the video that keeps me around.

Plus.. According to the Sony Website, we will be able to use BMD cards for video preview when editing, but they still prefer AJA for capturing. This is another nice advancement way over due.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Well we still have to see what Rocket will do... hopefully for $5k we get everything in one slot and we can get Vegas to work as wonderfully as anything else out there. Imagine being able to get a station that can edit 4:4:4 RGB and with Rocket being able to turn that into 5k RAW with 1080 RT grading preview... and to be ale to just drop the clips in the timeline like I am doing now with .mxf

 

[Peter Moretti]

I use Vegas and Avid Media Composer. While I WANT to like Vegas, I just haven't been able to warm up to it.

Audio is exceptional, but cutting is much easier in Avid. While Vegas does have some seemingly better CC tools, Avid's implementation of its color correction is superior, IMHO. And Avid's built-in effects and the Boris CC and Red effects seem like a higher quality than what you find in Vegas.

Avid media management is in a much higher league. And there is no comparison in terms of speed. Because Avid uses the GPU, it blows away Vegas.

But Vegas does have a lot things going for it, like realtime scopes and much better basic window handling. Believe it or not, you can't even dock windows in Media Composer. So if two windows border each other and you resize one of the windows, the other window won't adjust its size automatically. This is a joke. And Vegas is much better at firewire capture.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I have used Avid and HATED the window management. I agree though that in terms of speed it blew Vegas' doors clear off. Also for some reason that escapes me I agree that the color quality seemed superior in Avid.. this worries me too. I want to have a pro finish my grading, but I want to be able to work on whatever I chose to edit in without a pro for every project...

If I can't get Vegas to interpret the color right then getting a pro monitoring solution and an expensive card will be useless.

Bobby, what hardware are you running Vegas on? I usually don't use the scopes live because they eat up resources. I ask because if you are on Nehalem CPU/s I'd love to know if you've edited 4:4:4 1080 and if so what sort of playback did you get?

 

[Jose Alvarez]

We'll see...

We'll see...

...Imagine being able to get a station that can edit 4:4:4 RGB and with Rocket being able to turn that into 5k RAW with 1080 RT grading preview... and to be ale to just drop the clips in the timeline like I am doing now with .mxf

I don't believe that is the intended purpose of the RR. It is not intended to encode your entire timeline into REDCODE, since REDCODE is an "acquisition" only codec, but simply accelerate the realtime debayer playback of REDCODE clips on your timeline. Remember REDCODE RGB codec is also in development, maybe that is the intended "editing" codec that will be supported by RR. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

That is what I meant. I guess I wasn't too clear.

 

[Jose Alvarez]

BTW, on the Vegas vs FCP topic... Every single Pro Video Editing Tool out there (software or Hardware) uses the Preview/Program metaphor used by professional editors for decades. So it seems that no matter how good the software is, if the editor has to changed his whole style of editing, or "workflow" if you will, the software will never gain the "Pro" market acceptance needed for the software to grow and prosper.

Without any disrespect intended (I have tried Vegas), the only reason it is still around is because of what its price point has been since its introduction.

I have edited several indi feature films in both Media Composer and FCP, and I just can't see myself finishing those projects in Vegas. Like it or not, Avid MC is till king of the hill, with FCP following very close behind. And every editor I know can go back and forth relatively easy between MC and FCP. The same can not be said about Vegas, and to a post house (or any broadcasting/production company) this is very important.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I can see the double window as a very good point. I have not edited in either Avid or FC enough to get used to it to a point where I miss it. I like the added real estate, but I can see how it may work with a third monitor for full screen preview where your windows on the NLE are just smaller reference previews... I would have to try it out. Still I can't say that I would switch to FC for just that feature. If I do switch it would have to be for something much more imperative, like speed.

 

[Peter Moretti]

But Vegas has one other advantage we're neglecting to emphasize. It can work in RGB space and render uncompressed (or compressed if you have proper codec registered on your computer) to 4:4:4. Avid Media Composer can't do this.

For working with Red, this can make Vegas very valuable. I guess it depends on if you want to finish yourself with Vegas or go to a professional house.

But even if you couldn't complete the finish yourself, why not just bring the pros a file from Vegas and say "Do what you need to do."? You don't even need an EDL or source tapes if everything you did in Vegas is rendered at 32-bit floating point and saved as 4:4:4. Why not just have the finishers work off the grade from Vegas?

 

[jake blackstone]

4. This one is a straight up question: Would there be a way to bring an EDL with color decisions to a post house without having to render an uncompressed RGB? To somehow keep it as .r3d's... am EDL + CDL...
[/QUOTE]
Although the idea of CDL working in conjunction with the EDL is very compelling, unfortunately reality isn't so straightforward. CDL had been heavily promoted by a number of producers of color grading solutions, Gamma and Density being the most vocal one. For example, their 3cP system had been used on an "Iron Man", among other productions, for the final grade at E-films. In reality, CDL is implemented quite poorly and every manufacturer interprets the CDL data differently, which frankly defeats it's purpose. Presently only DaVinci can correctly interpret 3cP's CDL data. So I wouldn't count on CDL working any time soon...