FCP / Color Workflow Question

[Alexander Fijlstra]

Hi everyone,

I've done a commercial on the RED ONE which i offlined on Media 100 and onlined in After Effects CS3. Because both programs didn't support the R3D files i converted the R3D files to selfcontained QT's using RedCine. Not ideal, but because it where only a couple of shots, it was not a problem.

My next project will be a short film shot on the RED ONE. Because this will be a lot more shots i really want to change my workflow. It will be edited on Fincal Cut Pro and graded using Color.

I've read a lot of posts about workflows, but it's still not completely clear.

Is the following workflow an option:

- Shoot on 4K
- Offline edit with the M quality QT reference.
- When the edit is done, relink to 2K QT reference.
- Send to color for colorgrading
- Send back to FCP for final output.

With this workflow i'm only working with the reference QT's. On many forums and sites i'm reading that people render out full-res QT or DPX. Can anyone tell me what the advantage is of a selfcontained movie instead of reference quicktime.

I hope someone can clear this up for me, thank in advance!

 

[Chris Kenny]

Can anyone tell me what the advantage is of a selfcontained movie instead of reference quicktime.

1) You don't need access to the R3D files to edit. Nice if you have a lot of footage and want to edit on a laptop, or whatever.
2) FCP is more responsive working with ProRes than R3D proxies.
3) You can do one-light grades before exporting your ProRes files, so you have something nicer to look at while editing.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

On many forums and sites i'm reading that people render out full-res QT or DPX. Can anyone tell me what the advantage is of a selfcontained movie instead of reference quicktime.

I offline with proxy files, then generate an XML that I use to pull select transcodes at 2k using color/gamma space that lends itself to the color correcting process. This way I only transcode what ends up in the cut, and there is no log and transfer time spend on the front end. With 2k DPX plates I get a better "negative" to run through color. There are still bugs associated with using Color to CC Raw files so I work from DPX selects instead.

 

[Alexander Fijlstra]

then generate an XML that I use to pull select transcodes at 2k using color/gamma space that lends itself to the color correcting process. This way I only transcode what ends up in the cut,

How do you do this transcode process? is there a easy way you can just transcode the used footage?

 

[Alex Ferrari]

Hi everyone,

I've done a commercial on the RED ONE which i offlined on Media 100 and onlined in After Effects CS3. Because both programs didn't support the R3D files i converted the R3D files to selfcontained QT's using RedCine. Not ideal, but because it where only a couple of shots, it was not a problem.

My next project will be a short film shot on the RED ONE. Because this will be a lot more shots i really want to change my workflow. It will be edited on Fincal Cut Pro and graded using Color.

I've read a lot of posts about workflows, but it's still not completely clear.

Is the following workflow an option:

- Shoot on 4K
- Offline edit with the M quality QT reference.
- When the edit is done, relink to 2K QT reference.
- Send to color for colorgrading
- Send back to FCP for final output.

With this workflow i'm only working with the reference QT's. On many forums and sites i'm reading that people render out full-res QT or DPX. Can anyone tell me what the advantage is of a selfcontained movie instead of reference quicktime.

I hope someone can clear this up for me, thank in advance!

First off there is a ton of mis-information running around the web about RED Post Workflow, this is why out of over 40 RED Projects I've posted not one has come through my door with a correct workflow.

Editing or Coloring off the proxies is not the way to handle the workflow coming off the RED. You are asking for edl issues and headaches. Trust me! You also lose all the wonderful metadata that the R3d file has to offer. You would be cheating yourself. This is what I do to maintain the quality and keep a workable workflow (just a side note the feature film "The Knowing" staring Nic Cage did there DI Color grading in this fashion and also did it in 2k (4k is major overkill):

Here is the answer, straight from the pages of the RED FCP Manual. Make sure you have a tower that can handle this workflow if not you will have trouble. You can do the offline on a smaller mac but the coloring process needs to be done on a tower and you need a professional calibrated broadcast monitor to see true color. Coloring off of anything else for a Broadcast, DVD, or film out is not recommended and could be a waste of time. Here it is:

Work Offline Using ProRes; Finish Using RED QuickTime Media

This workflow describes transcoding to ProRes for efficient offline editing, then reconforming your edited sequence to reingested RED QuickTime media for final mastering and color correction using Color.

• Advantage — Editing with ProRes 422 media is less processor-intensive than editing using RED QuickTime files. After you reconform, you can work in Color at higher quality with access to all of the raw image data in the R3D file, as Color can bypass QuickTime and use the RED framework directly.
• Disadvantage — Reconforming is an extra step that requires good organization.

Stage 1 — Ingest Using ProRes, and Perform an Offline Edit
1. If it’s necessary to edit your program at offline quality for efficiency, transcode the
archived RED media to ProRes 422 or ProRes 422 (HQ) using the Log and Transfer
window in Final Cut Pro. (For more information, see “Transcoding to ProRes 422.”)
2. Edit your project in Final Cut Pro as you normally would.

Stage 2 — Reconform Your Project to RED QuickTime Media
1. Once your edit is locked, prepare your edited sequence to be media-managed by moving all video clips that aren’t being superimposed as part of a compositing operation down to track V1. This makes navigation and grade management much easier once you start working in Color, and may eliminate unused clips from the Timeline, reducing the amount of media needing to be reconformed.

2. If you haven’t already, create a “RED Using ProRes” sequence preset in Final Cut Pro. (For more information, see “Creating a RED Using ProRes Sequence Preset in Final Cut Pro.”) You’ll use this preset to media-manage your edited sequence.

3. Right-click the edited sequence in the Browser, and choose Media Manage from the shortcut menu to open the Media Manager. The recommended settings are:
• Media pop-up menu – Create Offline
• Include render files – off
• “Set sequences to” pop-up menu — “RED Using ProRes” (the name you gave the sequence preset you created)
• Include master clips outside selection – off
• Delete unused media from duplicated – off
• Use Handles – off
• Include affiliate clips outside selection – off
• “Base media file names on” pop-up menu – existing file names
• Duplicate selected items and place into a new project – on
• Include nonactive multiclip angles – off

4. Next, click the Browse button in the Media Destination area and choose a location to save the media and the new offline sequence you’re creating, then click OK.

5. When the Media Manager operation finishes, you need to change the ingest options of the Log and Transfer window before you begin to actually ingest media:

5.1. Open the Log and Transfer window, and choose Preferences from the Action pop-up menu (the menu with the gear icon).

5.2. When the Import Preferences sheet appears, choose Native from the
“Transcode to” column corresponding to the RED Plugin.

5.3. Close the Log and Transfer window when you’ve finished.

6. Lastly, right-click the new offline sequence that’s been created, and choose Batch Capture from the shortcut menu. When the Log and Transfer window appears, reingest all necessary footage from your archived RED media directories.

Stage 3 — Grade Your Program Using Color
1. Prepare the sequence for sending to Color. Clips with effects or using media that is incompatible with Color (including clips with speed effects, still images, freeze frames, and multicam clips) should be prerendered as described in the “Moving Projects Between Final Cut Pro and Color” chapter of the Color User Manual. Export each clip that needs to be prerendered as either ProRes 422 (HQ) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2, and edit the resulting .mov file into your Timeline to replace the original, unsupported clip.

2. When you’re finished, right-click on your sequence in the Browser, and choose Send To > Color to send the prepared sequence to Color for grading.
Once in Color, you’ll find that you have access to each clip’s camera setting
metadata via the Red tab in the Primary In room. You can use the RED image data as is, or make adjustments as necessary. Please note, clips that have been transcoded to ProRes 422 (HQ) lose the ability to access these camera settings, as they no longer contain the native RED raw image data.

Stage 4 — Render Out of Color

1. When you’re ready to render the color-corrected project, you have two choices:
• Option 1 – Render to DPX for film printing. As with the digital intermediate workflow
described in the Color User Manual, Pan & Scan effects are rendered within Color when you select DPX or Cineon as your Render File Type, and dissolves are rendered by Color when you use the Gather Rendered Media command to assemble the final consecutively numbered image sequence for film output.

• Option 2 – If you’re planning to output to SD or HD video (for example, if you’re rendering a second version of your program for video mastering), set the Render File Type to QuickTime, and set the QuickTime Export Codec to either ProRes 422 (HQ) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2. After you’ve rendered the project, send it back to Final Cut Pro.

Happy Coloring!:head_explode:

 

[Carlos Corral]

In case you need more insight, read up on what you can do here:

Editing with REDCode:
http://www.mindwarpentertainment.com/blog/2009/04/editing-with-redcode/

 

[Alex Ferrari]

In case you need more insight, read up on what you can do here:

Editing with REDCode:
http://www.mindwarpentertainment.com/blog/2009/04/editing-with-redcode/

I know that you can do real-time playback in Color using RED quicktimes but how did it work for you in FCP? I have a 8 core Mac with 13 gigs of RAM and the RED quicktimes really slowdown the system, that is why I go with the Prores files. Depending on the client and budget I can continue to go with the pro-res files to color (of course you lose all that lovely RED metadata but if the client does not have the $$$ to do it RED RAW all the way we can still get a very good result). Thoughts?:beer:

 

[Jason Osterday]

Here is my current workflow:

-Drag and Drop QT Proxies (Typically M) into the FCP timeline. Edit.
-Prepare for Color by removing transitions, rendering/baking clips that have effects laid in, and cleaning up tracks
-"SEND TO COLOR"
-Color imports the sequence as XML and accesses the R3D files
-Use the RED Room tab and correct the meta data
-Render out of Color as DPX or ProRes HQ
-Insert back into FCP

What is the difference between this and doing NATIVE Log and Transfer and ingesting all of that disc intensive QT wrapped media??

Native L&T doubles your disc space, correct? Why bother with that method when sequences up to 30min handle proxies just fine on 4 core towers?
To me, I have not seen any quality difference between Proxies going into Color (and accessing the R3D) versus QT Wrapped Native L&T Files imported into Color.
This workflow has been flawless on:
-4 core
-2 to 4gig
-AJA Kona3
with sequences up to 30min. I have not tried anything more than 30min.

 

[Chris Kenny]

What is the difference between this and doing NATIVE Log and Transfer and ingesting all of that disc intensive QT wrapped media??

Now that the Color looping bug with proxies can be fixed, I don't think there is a difference. The QT wrapped raw never really made much sense to me, honestly.

 

[Alex Ferrari]

Here is my current workflow:

-Drag and Drop QT Proxies (Typically M) into the FCP timeline. Edit.
-Prepare for Color by removing transitions, rendering/baking clips that have effects laid in, and cleaning up tracks
-"SEND TO COLOR"
-Color imports the sequence as XML and accesses the R3D files
-Use the RED Room tab and correct the meta data
-Render out of Color as DPX or ProRes HQ
-Insert back into FCP

What is the difference between this and doing NATIVE Log and Transfer and ingesting all of that disc intensive QT wrapped media??

Native L&T doubles your disc space, correct? Why bother with that method when sequences up to 30min handle proxies just fine on 4 core towers?
To me, I have not seen any quality difference between Proxies going into Color (and accessing the R3D) versus QT Wrapped Native L&T Files imported into Color.
This workflow has been flawless on:
-4 core
-2 to 4gig
-AJA Kona3
with sequences up to 30min. I have not tried anything more than 30min.

I literally just got back from RED Headquarters and specifically ask to speak to a tech about the proxy debate. This is what he told me, if you use proxies you need to know what you are doing in the edit chair. Sequence has to be perfect, no dissolves, one track of video, etc. He also said since proxies are reference files there is always a chance of edl issues. You would be choosing a workflow that has the possibility of giving you major problems. Also do not attempt on a feature or anything longer than a commercial or music video.

He recommends the transcoding workflow with Apple Pro res because it is ROCK SOLID! No edl issues, no workflow problems. This is straight from RED Headquarters. As a post supervisor I would always go done the path of safety and not risk it with proxies, it was built to do basic, cuts only edits on set to see if things work and not as part of a full blown workflow. There are just too many places that something can go wrong.

Thought I would pass the info along.

 

[Ian Andolina]

The significant problem I see with all these workflows is the following: Color then uses "half res" debayering rather than "full res and then scale", this seemed to have a significant effect on image sharpness and noise when I tested sample stills out of redalert/redcine etc.

What is the best way to get 2K out of Color but using the technical advantages of full resolution debayering and intelligent resizing?

 

[Carlos Corral]

I know that you can do real-time playback in Color using RED quicktimes but how did it work for you in FCP? I have a 8 core Mac with 13 gigs of RAM and the RED quicktimes really slowdown the system, that is why I go with the Prores files. Depending on the client and budget I can continue to go with the pro-res files to color (of course you lose all that lovely RED metadata but if the client does not have the $$$ to do it RED RAW all the way we can still get a very good result). Thoughts?:beer:

Read the RED Whitepaper that comes with the Final Cut Plug-In. For editing purposes, my frame rate playback is at full and the image quality is either medium or low. You can't play the native footage back in dynamic quality since it will eat your system.

I don't do the ProRes workflow because you need way to many hard drives and the conversion process takes forever. Also, the reason I don't do prores is because I want to keep the RED Metadata intact for use in COLOR.

 

[Alex Ferrari]

Read the RED Whitepaper that comes with the Final Cut Plug-In. For editing purposes, my frame rate playback is at full and the image quality is either medium or low. You can't play the native footage back in dynamic quality since it will eat your system.

I don't do the ProRes workflow because you need way to many hard drives and the conversion process takes forever. Also, the reason I don't do prores is because I want to keep the RED Metadata intact for use in COLOR.

Work Offline Using ProRes; Finish Using RED QuickTime Media

This workflow describes transcoding to ProRes for efficient offline editing, then reconforming your edited sequence to reingested RED QuickTime media for final mastering and color correction using Color.

• Advantage — Editing with ProRes 422 media is less processor-intensive than editing using RED QuickTime files. After you reconform, you can work in Color at higher quality with access to all of the raw image data in the R3D file, as Color can bypass QuickTime and use the RED framework directly.
• Disadvantage — Reconforming is an extra step that requires good organization.

Stage 1 — Ingest Using ProRes, and Perform an Offline Edit
1. If it’s necessary to edit your program at offline quality for efficiency, transcode the
archived RED media to ProRes 422 or ProRes 422 (HQ) using the Log and Transfer
window in Final Cut Pro. (For more information, see “Transcoding to ProRes 422.”)
2. Edit your project in Final Cut Pro as you normally would.

Stage 2 — Reconform Your Project to RED QuickTime Media
1. Once your edit is locked, prepare your edited sequence to be media-managed by moving all video clips that aren’t being superimposed as part of a compositing operation down to track V1. This makes navigation and grade management much easier once you start working in Color, and may eliminate unused clips from the Timeline, reducing the amount of media needing to be reconformed.

2. If you haven’t already, create a “RED Using ProRes” sequence preset in Final Cut Pro. (For more information, see “Creating a RED Using ProRes Sequence Preset in Final Cut Pro.”) You’ll use this preset to media-manage your edited sequence.

3. Right-click the edited sequence in the Browser, and choose Media Manage from the shortcut menu to open the Media Manager. The recommended settings are:
• Media pop-up menu – Create Offline
• Include render files – off
• “Set sequences to” pop-up menu — “RED Using ProRes” (the name you gave the sequence preset you created)
• Include master clips outside selection – off
• Delete unused media from duplicated – off
• Use Handles – off
• Include affiliate clips outside selection – off
• “Base media file names on” pop-up menu – existing file names
• Duplicate selected items and place into a new project – on
• Include nonactive multiclip angles – off

4. Next, click the Browse button in the Media Destination area and choose a location to save the media and the new offline sequence you’re creating, then click OK.

5. When the Media Manager operation finishes, you need to change the ingest options of the Log and Transfer window before you begin to actually ingest media:

5.1. Open the Log and Transfer window, and choose Preferences from the Action pop-up menu (the menu with the gear icon).

5.2. When the Import Preferences sheet appears, choose Native from the
“Transcode to” column corresponding to the RED Plugin.

5.3. Close the Log and Transfer window when you’ve finished.

6. Lastly, right-click the new offline sequence that’s been created, and choose Batch Capture from the shortcut menu. When the Log and Transfer window appears, reingest all necessary footage from your archived RED media directories.

Stage 3 — Grade Your Program Using Color
1. Prepare the sequence for sending to Color. Clips with effects or using media that is incompatible with Color (including clips with speed effects, still images, freeze frames, and multicam clips) should be prerendered as described in the “Moving Projects Between Final Cut Pro and Color” chapter of the Color User Manual. Export each clip that needs to be prerendered as either ProRes 422 (HQ) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2, and edit the resulting .mov file into your Timeline to replace the original, unsupported clip.

2. When you’re finished, right-click on your sequence in the Browser, and choose Send To > Color to send the prepared sequence to Color for grading.
Once in Color, you’ll find that you have access to each clip’s camera setting
metadata via the Red tab in the Primary In room. You can use the RED image data as is, or make adjustments as necessary. Please note, clips that have been transcoded to ProRes 422 (HQ) lose the ability to access these camera settings, as they no longer contain the native RED raw image data.

Stage 4 — Render Out of Color

1. When you’re ready to render the color-corrected project, you have two choices:
• Option 1 – Render to DPX for film printing. As with the digital intermediate workflow
described in the Color User Manual, Pan & Scan effects are rendered within Color when you select DPX or Cineon as your Render File Type, and dissolves are rendered by Color when you use the Gather Rendered Media command to assemble the final consecutively numbered image sequence for film output.

• Option 2 – If you’re planning to output to SD or HD video (for example, if you’re rendering a second version of your program for video mastering), set the Render File Type to QuickTime, and set the QuickTime Export Codec to either ProRes 422 (HQ) or Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2. After you’ve rendered the project, send it back to Final Cut Pro.

 

[AaronPicot]

stuck!

stuck!

I am following the instructions on the white paper for "Workflow 2: Work Offline Using ProRes; Finish Using RED QuickTime Media". I am getting stuck when I come to the part that says:
"Lastly, right-click the new offline sequence that’s been created, and choose Batch Capture from the shortcut menu. When the Log and Transfer window appears, reingest all necessary footage from your archived RED media directories.
I get an error message saying there is no deck connected. Log & Transfer does not open. Is this an Easy Setup issue? Can anyone tell me how to correctly execute this step? I believe I understand every other step fine, but I'm getting hung up here.

Also, when I complete this step, will Log & Transfer bring in only the video from the clip in my sequence, or will it bring in the entire original clip? Will it read my RSX for the one-light cc I did in RA before I made my PR422 for editing?

Thanks for any direction I can get on this.
_Aaron

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I get an error message saying there is no deck connected.

Did you use Log&Capture or Log&Transfer?

 

[AaronPicot]

Did you use Log&Capture or Log&Transfer?

It just says to right click on the sequence in the bin and choose "Batch Capture". The next instructions in the white paper imply that Log & Transfer will open when I do this, but I get the error message. Should I open L&T manually? Stuck and frustrated.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

Along this subject, I'm editing a TV spot shot on RED in FCP (Imported using L&C, native, QT-wrapped r3d files) edited, and sent to Color. Did the correction using the RED tab, other primary corrections, rendered out ProRes 422 QT and used the "send to > Final Cut Pro" option out of Color.

Here's my question: Once back in FCP, my sequence marked "from Color" doesn't look like it has been corrected at all. The file names are the same as before, not rendered files. Am I missing a step?

Editing in FCP 6.0.6 on a 2x2.8GHz Quad-Core with 18GB of RAM.

Thanks.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Here's my question: Once back in FCP, my sequence marked "from Color" doesn't look like it has been corrected at all. The file names are the same as before, not rendered files. Am I missing a step?

The file names should look the same as before... but not the images. If your right click on a clip and reveal in finder, you will see the file it points to is a color grade render file like 1_g1. It all happens in the background.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

IThis is what he told me, if you use proxies you need to know what you are doing in the edit chair. Sequence has to be perfect, no dissolves, one track of video, etc. He also said since proxies are reference files there is always a chance of edl issues. You would be choosing a workflow that has the possibility of giving you major problems. Also do not attempt on a feature or anything longer than a commercial or music video.

Well, I respectfully disagree. I have never had any issues with frame accuracy, and yes, we have cut long form and music videos from them, as well as dozens of spots. Yes, you have to prep your selects list removing effects and flatten to one track of video before exporting XML, but depending on your color correction workflow, you have to do this anyway (i.e. third party company request DPX sequences for a session). Proxy workflow might not be for everyone, but I have never seen these issues that you were warned about. I have never seen a workflow that didn't that the possibility of major problems, including L&T, if you don't execute properly.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

The file names should look the same as before... but not the images. If your right click on a clip and reveal in finder, you will see the file it points to is a color grade render file like 1_g1. It all happens in the background.

It doesn't point to that file. It points to the QT file in the "capture scratch" folder that was made during the L&T process. I don't know what step I'm missing.