How do I get RED Demo Reel Quality?

[Russell Fogle]

I've been shooting some nice stuff here with my RED ONE and I love the camera. My stuff looks good but man, no where near as sharp & tight many of those shots in the new RED Demo Reel. I'm not talking about the great lighting or scenes, etc. I'm just talking about pure crispness / sharpness of the picture.

I've shot with high end Primes including one 40mm Master Prime, so I'm ruling out the glass for the most part. I check and adjust my back focus. I typically rendered out my files full DeBayer 4K files through RED Cine as QuickTime ProREs HQ. Typically I shoot in 4K 23.98.

What am I missing here... Should I be working in DPX? How about shooting straight 24 frames?

I know some techy out there is dying to show me the errors of my ways.

Thanks for your time!

Russell

 

[josemnorton]

I've been shooting some nice stuff here with my RED ONE and I love the camera. My stuff looks good but man, no where near as sharp & tight many of those shots in the new RED Demo Reel. I'm not talking about the great lighting or scenes, etc. I'm just talking about pure crispness / sharpness of the picture.

I've shot with high end Primes including one 40mm Master Prime, so I'm ruling out the glass for the most part. I check and adjust my back focus. I typically rendered out my files full DeBayer 4K files through RED Cine as QuickTime ProREs HQ. Typically I shoot in 4K 23.98.

What am I missing here... Should I be working in DPX? How about shooting straight 24 frames?

I know some techy out there is dying to show me the errors of my ways.

Thanks for your time!

Russell

Hi,

I always asked myself that question and recently I ran into some great results while rendering out DPX from RedCine using the Lanczos output filter in output settings. It generates pretty crisp images.

I'm wondering if anyone had the time to render out some frames with all the different filters and compare them side by side... Might be a cool thing to post.

Good luck.

 

[donatello b]

in general on my system ( pc ) i prefer 1/2 downscale ( 4k to 2k ... 4kHD to HD ) vs. some other "number ( ie: 4k to HD .... 2k to HD ) .... to my eye they just look just slightly sharper ...
when i do edit in 2k ( original 4k downscale to 2k ) , instead of scaling the 2k down to HD i crop the 2k to hd on final render ... again looks slightly sharper to my eye then scaling 2k to HD ...

 

[M Most]

I've been shooting some nice stuff here with my RED ONE and I love the camera. My stuff looks good but man, no where near as sharp & tight many of those shots in the new RED Demo Reel. I'm not talking about the great lighting or scenes, etc. I'm just talking about pure crispness / sharpness of the picture.

Who's your colorist and what are the viewing conditions under which he or she is working?

 

[MJ KERBER]

The Red demo reel was cut and graded at Plaster City Post by Michael Cione (sp?), most likely on their Scratch system in a D.I. theater.

So, you've got a professional colorist and a top of the line hardware/software combo making well shot footage look that much better.

DIY isn't always the best way.

Having said that, yes you should output 10-bit DPX instead of ProRes.

 

[donatello b]

post flow equipment/software makes a difference ...
so Plastercity could tell you what they used/did ..

if you 've seen the movie CRANK 2 at your local theater. note that it was shot on canon HDV camera's ( $3900 & $999 camera's ) ..well i've never seen HDV look that good from anything i do here ....

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

well if you light well, use good glass and still dont think it is "crisp" enough -

it is prob. you post workflow.... simple things like increasing the contrast will result in a substantial amount of "perceived" sharpness i.e things will look alot more "crisp". and many many more little things like that...

So at that level, it is the colorist/DP in post that pulls it "up there."

 

[jake blackstone]

The Red demo reel was cut and graded at Plaster City Post by Michael Cione (sp?), most likely on their Scratch system in a D.I. theater.

So, you've got a professional colorist and a top of the line hardware/software combo making well shot footage look that much better.

DIY isn't always the best way.

Having said that, yes you should output 10-bit DPX instead of ProRes.

More like Pablo...

 

[michael zaletel]

Are we talking about speed or quality? Someone like Michael Cioni could make the same R3D files look just as good using a combination of RedCine and Apple Color on a simple MacBookPro connected to an Apple Cinema Display through a Matrox MXO. Sure the settings matter but its' mostly the colorists' talent. Granted, he'd probably still be working on the reel if he hadn't used a much faster system and much more sophisticated software but let's not confuse speed with quality when talking about high-end systems.

In fact, it's interesting to see Pablo 4K and Apple Color listed on the same "color correction services" page and I'm quite sure they've pulled off equally stunning work in both. However, if they are charging $150/hr for Apple Color suite and $500/hr for the Pablo 4K, you better pick the Pablo if you want to spend less.

http://www.plastercitypost.com/color-correction.php

To better answer the original question though, I think you are underestimating just how much of a difference color grading can make on the final picture. A great colorist can take a seemingly drab, apparently out of focus (not truly out of focus of course), under- or over-lit clip and turn it into a masterpiece.

Don't judge an R3D file by it's proxy.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

 

[Michael Cioni]

Michael is right - PlasterCITY does have Apple Color on our website - but we honestly haven't used it all that much in recent years. The main reason we list it is because some clients who want to do more themselves can take advantage of the Quicktime end-to-end workflow, which I imagine is why many Red users like the Apple centric way of doing things. But for DI, no, we do not use Apple Color for digital intermediates.
[We use Scratch, SpeedGrade and Pablo/iQ for DI - which are not listed on the current website, as it is currently being re-built]

As for speed and quality of images, I will agree a good colorist can make Apple Color sing - Ian Vertovec (one of our talented colorists) did amazing things with Color/Final Touch that went theatrical. Yes, it requires a lot more patience, but you can get pretty far with Color.
In answer to the question with the Red Reel or other DIs PlasterCITY does, no, we probably couldn't do them on Color. Though a tremendous system for the price, Color lacks the power and precision necessary to sculpt images that require 5-10 layers of grading that is normal for DI. Plus, 3rd party filters, limits with list complexity (like time stretches or multi-resolutions) and the inability to preview grades in real time make Color a bit challenging for DI. But still, we love it, respect it and can't seem to take it off our website!
michael

 

[Allan Stallard]

Hey Mike, would it be out of line to ask what typically gets broken out into 5-10 layers in your DI process?

 

[jake blackstone]

Are we talking about speed or quality? Someone like Michael Cioni could make the same R3D files look just as good using a combination of RedCine and Apple Color on a simple MacBookPro connected to an Apple Cinema Display through a Matrox MXO. Sure the settings matter but its' mostly the colorists' talent. Granted, he'd probably still be working on the reel if he hadn't used a much faster system and much more sophisticated software but let's not confuse speed with quality when talking about high-end systems.

In fact, it's interesting to see Pablo 4K and Apple Color listed on the same "color correction services" page and I'm quite sure they've pulled off equally stunning work in both. However, if they are charging $150/hr for Apple Color suite and $500/hr for the Pablo 4K, you better pick the Pablo if you want to spend less.

http://www.plastercitypost.com/color-correction.php

To better answer the original question though, I think you are underestimating just how much of a difference color grading can make on the final picture. A great colorist can take a seemingly drab, apparently out of focus (not truly out of focus of course), under- or over-lit clip and turn it into a masterpiece.

Don't judge an R3D file by it's proxy.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

Here is a little illustration of your point, what colorist can do with a little grade. This shot was graded in Lustre from DPXs, transcoded from R3D in RC.
These are just screen grabs, but I can post the QT, if anyone is interested.

 

[Michael Cioni]

Di grading

Di grading

Allan -
Of course you can ask.
Most of DI (especially with CMOS camera acquisition formats) require a lot of grading surrounding the skin tones. With Red, because it shoots daylight and most lighting packages are balanced for tungsten, there is a lot of balancing that is required to get shots to even, smooth skin tones when there are multiple people in the scene. Plus, because there are only 8 or 9 stops in the Red, it is common to use a lot of layers to qualify foreground from background elements.

Like Jake's stills (awesome, by the way) there is more than just primary grading. I can already see 6 or 7 layers in this image, maybe more, that are all about sculpting the landscape, sky, lights, shadows, etc. Sometimes you'll see a lot of this work to make stylized shots like in this piece, but sometimes you need the same amount of work to make very basic shots look good as well.

Hopefully this helps answer some of your questions - Tomorrow I'll post an example from a new film we're working on where we're dealing with skin tone balancing challenges.
michael

 

[jake blackstone]

Allan -
Of course you can ask.
Most of DI (especially with CMOS camera acquisition formats) require a lot of grading surrounding the skin tones. With Red, because it shoots daylight and most lighting packages are balanced for tungsten, there is a lot of balancing that is required to get shots to even, smooth skin tones when there are multiple people in the scene. Plus, because there are only 8 or 9 stops in the Red, it is common to use a lot of layers to qualify foreground from background elements.

Like Jake's stills (awesome, by the way) there is more than just primary grading. I can already see 6 or 7 layers in this image, maybe more, that are all about sculpting the landscape, sky, lights, shadows, etc. Sometimes you'll see a lot of this work to make stylized shots like in this piece, but sometimes you need the same amount of work to make very basic shots look good as well.

Hopefully this helps answer some of your questions - Tomorrow I'll post an example from a new film we're working on where we're dealing with skin tone balancing challenges.
michael

I'm glad you liked the shot, Michael, thanks.
I would like to show a couple more shots, where color grading can help the storytelling. First shot was shot daylight balanced, as can be seen in before the grade example, but the client actually wanted a fluorescent feel in the scene. So instead of normally balancing the skin tone, it was keyed and then balanced more toward green/cyan tone.
Oops, only three picture allowed...

 

[jake blackstone]

Allan -
Of course you can ask.
Most of DI (especially with CMOS camera acquisition formats) require a lot of grading surrounding the skin tones. With Red, because it shoots daylight and most lighting packages are balanced for tungsten, there is a lot of balancing that is required to get shots to even, smooth skin tones when there are multiple people in the scene. Plus, because there are only 8 or 9 stops in the Red, it is common to use a lot of layers to qualify foreground from background elements.

Like Jake's stills (awesome, by the way) there is more than just primary grading. I can already see 6 or 7 layers in this image, maybe more, that are all about sculpting the landscape, sky, lights, shadows, etc. Sometimes you'll see a lot of this work to make stylized shots like in this piece, but sometimes you need the same amount of work to make very basic shots look good as well.

Hopefully this helps answer some of your questions - Tomorrow I'll post an example from a new film we're working on where we're dealing with skin tone balancing challenges.
michael

In the second example, client wanted more of the muted and stylish look. I selectively desaturated the image, with more aggressive application of desaturation in the dark and light areas. In addition a couple of masks were used for background, so it could be darkened and defocused. Overall slight grain was added to reduce the obvious defocus effect in the background.

 

[michael zaletel]

Though a tremendous system for the price, Color lacks the power and precision necessary to sculpt images that require 5-10 layers of grading that is normal for DI.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for taking the time. Could you point out some of the important operational differences between Color and the higher end systems. I know there's a lot missing but I'd rather hear about the functions and capabilities that really matter on a day to day basis from you rather than from biased marketing literature. For example, advanced mask assist features (especially for correcting skin tones), ability to keyframe grades over time, auto-recognition of scene and lighting changes, if those exist in higher end systems.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

 

[Paul Leeming]

Don't discount what you can do just in RedCine:

Ungraded original:

Careful application of curves and colour balancing can bring out a beautiful image in 95% of cases with no secondaries needed.

HTH

Paul

 

[Russell Fogle]

Very insightful, I appreciate everyone's input on this, especially Michael from PlasterCity who created the product in question.

Proof positive of what you can do with enough time, budget & skill...

 

[jake blackstone]

Don't discount what you can do just in RedCine:

Ungraded original:

Careful application of curves and colour balancing can bring out a beautiful image in 95% of cases with no secondaries needed.

HTH

Paul

Hi Paul. I agree with you. This shot could have been easily done with just HSL curves, until you realize, that our hero moves outside and she's lit with tungsten light as we continue to peek inside of the store. All of a sudden curves approach don't work as easily anymore. Sure, you could roto mask it, but it would be very slow and tedious. That is why for the purpose of expediency, I chose to do it this way. Before doing any scene, colorist has to carefully analyze it, so the look can be carried through. There always at least two or three different ways to do any scene, so you just pick what you think is the most appropriate one.