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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Conundrum...

I'm not so sure this is about Scarlet buyers being willing to take "whatever" Jim has- I don't think this is about getting it 'right'- it has already transcended 'right'. We all know by now that RED Co isn't about to release a compromised camera or lens etc.. I think Jim is asking: how many cherries on top are worth delaying a kick ass, unrivaled (as of today) cine camera? If these so called cherries were anything more than that I don't think he would even consider releasing the goods- that's my guess- but I'm not holding his cards. RED one wasn't my time, times change, I'm interested in Scarlet and Epic, my feelings (faith) are the same for either release: the sooner the better. I'm sure "we" could go on for ever making this thing 'better'.
 
I think part of the conundrum that Red faces with the release of Scarlet and Epic is how to keep themselves in the position they grabbed with the Red One and maybe more importantly how to maintain the perception that they alone can deliver a true cinema quality camera at low to mid level price points now that the established players in camera design are finally awake and moving to respond to Red.

When the Red One was announced I'm sure the large companies didn't take the threat seriously and therefore didn't throw many of their resources into developing similar cameras. They continued down their tried and true trickle ware path not seeing the shift about to happen around them. Because of that, once the Red One actually hit the streets and finally caught the attention of the boys in Japan, Red had a sizable head start on them and was able to brand themselves (rightly so) as the only game in town for affordable cinema quality cameras.

This is about to change, and that change is causing the conundrum.

Red might have some magic pixies, brilliant marketing, and the energy and innovation of a young company but other than that, everyone has access to basically the same types of technology that drive these camera systems. As the Canon's and Panasonic's of the world begin to turn out comparable cameras at similar price points to Red, our favorite upstart camera company will have a harder time staying several steps ahead.

It'll be fun watching Red stand toe to toe with the big boys and continue driving them along with new and innovative camera systems. I'm rooting for them because it's ultimately better for all of us production guys. Without Red, this upcoming NAB would be about HDV and DVCProHD cameras that have slightly better ASA ratings than the previous year's model. I honestly do believe that Red pushed the industry ahead 3 to 5 years, I just hope they don't get too caught up in trying to live up to the Red persona that was built while the big boys slept.
 
AVC-I is intraframe codec, so much better for edting than AVCHD as on the Canon.
 
The conundrum of time is eternal -- and perpetual. In everything.

And once you've started the revolution -- and succeeded -- how do you "govern"? (I see Jim as one of those unique revolutionaries, like George Washington -- brilliant as revolutionary & as a leader who governed well. Very rare indeed.)

Far be it from me to offer advice -- but one thing for sure, keep having fun!

I'm guessing the real advantage to Red in getting out the Scarlet sooner, is the spread of what I see as what was originally both the ace in the hole and the potential Achilles heel of the Red -- that is the r3d codec -- which is the ultimate key to it all, I think. And Red has proven it to be an ace.

In the last year the big boys in post have come around -- and are coming further around so that Redcode is becoming a known (and brilliant) commodity that will be easier and easier to work with.

Getting out 10-20-30-100K fixed lens scarlets will only make post-production even easier with native respose to this "new digital film" -- and once Redcode is prevalent enough, it can become easily accepted as a production standard.

This may be an antic viewpoint, but I see Jim & Red as being not just a wrangler, tamer, challenger of Sony, Panasonic, Arri...etc -- but as a kind of new "Kodak" putting out a medium that (so-far/maybe always) only fits in their cameras. And of course makes their cameras possible. There are other brilliant codecs out there -- but none seems to be able to do quite what Redcode can with the hardware Red has developed. And the more wide-spread it becomes, the harder it becomes for others to compete.
 
David Rasberry said:
AVC-I is intraframe codec, so much better for edting than AVCHD as on the Canon.
Click to expand...

But I don't see anywhere on the rumor sites where AVCHD is the variant being used. It could very well be AVC-I for all we know. All the site says is they'll use a flavor of MPEG4. Which, really, tells us nothing.
 
Robert Sanders said:
But I don't see anywhere on the rumor sites where AVCHD is the variant being used. It could very well be AVC-I for all we know. All the site says is they'll use a flavor of MPEG4. Which, really, tells us nothing.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the 5DII, not the rumored new camera.
 
www.broadcastnow.co.uk/technology/indepth/2009/03/how_we_took_the_red_camera_to_the_far_north.html

Production company Smoking Dogs Film
Director John Akomfrah recounts his Alaskan experience with the Red One camera.
OIL SPILL: THE EXXON VALDEZ DISASTER

The challenge To tell the story of the Exxon Valdez disaster in the teeth of an Alaskan winter

How we… took the Red camera to the far north

Shooting with a tapeless camera in one of the most punishing environments in the world would be a daunting enough adventure. When you consider that we were shooting with equipment not yet tried for shooting documentaries in such a climate, our challenges were even more considerable ...

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/techn..._we_took_the_red_camera_to_the_far_north.html
 
Perfect all currant features take as long as needed because the Red sceptics will either be put in their place or be given ammo for another year or two of Red bashing. I don't think adding any more requests now will contribute to the value of the camera. I think a cut off time should be set a date after which no more requests will be accepted and work from there.

After working on a Red feature film last year under a very well respected DP and experiencing almost all known Red errors. I asked him towards the end of the shoot whether he would shoot on Red again. He replied absolutely yes, I was taken back a bit as the Red bashing was constant through the shoot from week 1 and asked him how come? He said cause they are going to make it better.
What I think he meant was that it is the way of the future and with every new release the camera will have less problems. Until it becomes robust and reliable enough to compare with say a 435 on set rendering it an industry standard. Are Epic and brains going to be just that?
 
I answered this already. Get something out in calendar year 2009 for sure with Scarlet is my take.

Secondly and most importantly, whatever you decide to do I totally will back and most likely buy a Scarlet whenever it should come out.

Thanks again for RED. Your communication is beautifully and rarely done in todays day and age and very welcome-
 
Here's my 2.

I think there are 2 things to consider here, the users are your wants/needs/perspective and the RED makers perspective.

Me as the user I say:

If it's a matter of the camera be'n "buggy" I hear you, take your time and work that out, once its fixed give it to me asap.

I'm tired of HDV, lense adapters ,50 ISO, tons of lights a DTE and a heavy camera! Scarlet's hardware features and definitely REDCODE is far ahead of everybody else.

As humans we will always want more no matter how much we get of that thing that "If only we had". I'm not one of those who, when I get something I see how much more I can have, give me the Scarlet with the specs ya'll have now and I be happy because of what I would have just come from. To echo what was stated on this thread earlier, wait'n the the next improvement or that "If only" you'll never get anything. I'll be happy with the "now" Scarlet despite what the next edition/generation/improvement of it will be.

Jim and the crew are Gangster for what they did, I'm not the fan boy who wants to suck butt and bow and all... give credit where it's due. BUT I just want something I can stick my lenses on that I don't have to have 5 go-betweens...That I can control ISO (with reasonably low noise), shutter with 60fps (I mean i'll take 120 :-) but...) and metadat that's a dream, something form the future!!!!!I don't really care who gives it to me but would like to give my doe to Red just cuz they didn't spoon feed me and sucker me with version 1.0 when behind the scenes they have version 14.6...to suck my doe outta me.

And cuz they have listen to more than reasonable requests from the public which is nuts... So I'd like to vote this way wit my doe. That's why I'm a member, not here to suck butt. :yikes:



On the other hand from Red's perspective they (obviously) know more than they are let'n us know. I'm sure they know better what the competition is do'n than we do. If they have measure of distance they wanna stay from the competition, hey it's business I aint mad.


When you have the (financial) security to do what you want people can (should) only respect that...(Jim) At the end of the day it's your company/baby but perhaps, maybe just perhaps we should ask our selves how much difference does it make to the guy who's dead if his head is completely disintegrated or if half of it is just hang'n on... If it's a matter of compulsive obsessiveness then I say somebody hit Jim wit a cup of cold water and tell him to "Stop beat'n the guy already he's dead!!!!!" But if it's a matter of something that we don't see then hey "Rock On", we have no choice but to wait.


But hey imma simple dude... That's my 2
 
ok, computing..

..more = longer, less = quicker..

..done.

.. delaying the schedule by around a year sounds like the best plan to me, but then I have access to a R1 now..
 
If it can do this, I will buy it

If it can do this, I will buy it

I don't often post although I do try to keep up to speed on the 2/3 specs.

If it can do this, it will make money for me and I will buy it:

-3K at 30fps
-2K (and/or 1080p) at 150fps for 30s burst at up to 35 degrees C
-at least 2 primes in Nikon/Canon DSLR ballpark price
-as usable as Red One (long bootup, etc. - ok for me)
-stereo audio
-price range in what folks have been ballparking

Nice to have would be:
-time lapse
-4.8" monitor
-shot transition a la Sony Z1

Guarantee me these and I will put a deposit down.

Tim Burgess
 
Hi!

Owning a RED ONE and having access to some of them if required make me feel to say "I can wait as long as needed".

Controversly the question needs to be asked: "How long can RED wait?"

Jim clearly stated that pre-orders of RED ONE have been filled up, RED ONEs are shipped from stock now, as well as most gear around it. So monthly demand may already be decreasing for these particular products - I don't know this really, but I think that ~5000 units swamped a worldwide market pretty much already.

The next big point of making revenue for RED is the lenses. They are just around the corner. Unfortunately here is the first time RED is facing some kind of "competition", as other vendors want to jump into the same segment at interesting prices. If they can be compared - all NAB attendants are requested to check this out personally, please :) What is the outcome will be unsure until in a few hours... :) (Feedback very welcomed, as I can not attend personally - my wife will not let me go, we are awaiting our third child...).

Beside the fact that Jim is purely a man with a big fortune, the project RED is not aimed at spending money for the masses, as it appears to me. He took high risk (and is still taking) to get this project going, but is also at the same time aiming at income with these products. Beside all the fun he has, he needs this thing to pay for itself and spit out some extra beans for him (I guess... :) and I bet he won't correct me...)

So my thought is that RED needs to get products ready for market when the lense wave is getting a high peak. And this means Jim (the "benevolent dictator") need to adjust a basic "feature lock" for the ASIC at some point (and cost-wise there is NO alternative to the ASIC anyway). I think this is not really a question but a decision from his side, thats how I understand him.

So I suggest to all poeple considering EPIC and higher products, go and buy that RED ONE now. Its value is kept by the (still) "unbelieveable" offer Jim made: full value refund on the RED ONE when being swapped to an EPIC. You can work in the meantime, get hands-on experience with RED "usage" and may be able to re-use pretty much gear (that needs to be explained a bit, what can be used and what not, would make decisions easier, Jim!).

Clearly all those Scarlet-hungry guys that can not afford the bigger scale cameras - typically HDV users of the current/past - will have a problem by waiting. If you can afford: Go and get a RED ONE too, or rent one if possible. It keeps you going if you feel you can't use your old gear anymore (for whatever reason you think so).

From an economic point its important for everyone around that REDs sales do not go down just because everyone just waits for the new stuff and does not invest. Clearly we have rough times (depends pretty much only on ourselfs, does it?). RED is facing this as well, this is why Jim reduced over-hours a bit as he told us. We need to believe this :)

And here is where (IMHO) Jim's upgrade path has an drastic advantage over any other established business models that a currently fighting breaking sales: You can buy something "old" and know you invested in something "new" at the same time.

Your only risk is that (very very unlikely - I hope) RED would never fulfil its new product line. And even then - you would have done nothing else than investing in the best price/performance camera system you can get (because if no EPIC follows up, RED ONE will be still a class of its own). No risk IMHO - thats why it was a no-brainer for me to buy that RED ONE the first day it got announced (being customer no. 63...) and that not even being there at NAB back at that time at all, just by a phone call...

Clearly I know nothing about the financial situation of RED and really don't wan to, except that I want it to be positive enough to keep rolling. All I can do is buying something from RED when necessary/possible/economically feasable. The same rule applies (IMHO) to the whole business world these days. That will keep us ALL going.

Saving money for the future is the worsed thing I can think of at this moment. And leaving money at the banks is apparently the worsed thing to do these times, isn't it? A grandma's cushion is often safer...

That being said I am looking forward to the lense news from NAB and would be more than happy to see a real side-by-side test from all new lenses (maybe some guys can organize such thing to happen and share results here?).

And clearly to all other news coming in.

Have a great show & party!

Cheers,
Axel
 
If it was me, I'd always chose less features and try to make the product as well as possible in the shortest amount of time. In that order.

Red One already has plenty of features making it arguably the best camera on the market at any price point. The service is even better. Just refine what you have and ship it :thumbsup:
 
Pawel Achtel said:
If it was me, I'd always chose less features and try to make the product as well as possible in the shortest amount of time. In that order.

Red One already has plenty of features making it arguably the best camera on the market at any price point. The service is even better. Just refine what you have and ship it :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Personally I hate the RED ONE. I love shooting with it because it's mine, but as a camera I think it's poorly designed and clumsy. It's not very well thought through and ugly as F :beer:. The only thing it really has for it is that everything but the little joystick is built like a tank.

NOW If I'm to put out $50K for camera + gear (for camera only). I surely want better then the RED ONE and the cast accessories that came with it.

The $50K is excluding the upgrade path and assuming the accessories will cost $15K in the end with all gear needed for it (including 3d party, like ET stuff). Which then will be $48K with the FF35.

NOW that will be the same price as ARRI's most probably will cost when it comes out - that says a lot - either RED will step up in design and manufacturing material or ARRI will step down. Time will tell.

I truly hope RED will step up, because I really really want the EPIC :thumbsup:

PS don't be discouraged by my comment guys the RED ONE is a first try and for that you've come along way.
 
ha! I know why all you red one guys are so anxious to delay the Scarlet/Epic. Because every project I don't have mine yet for is one more rental of a REDOne. :thumbsup:
 
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