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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stuttering image while Panning

We did a side by side test with film for a studio project and took both all the way through film out and print. The conclusion for the studio was that it was no different than film after view butterflied tests. Footage shot was low light, interiors, and high contrast outdoors.

There were two other projects that did the same test with the same results that different post houses showed us but the producer wanted to do his own tests.

The CTO at the studio did all sorts of measurements and concluded the strobing was the expected 24p cadence.
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
but what about projects not shot for filmout,which 80% of the red shoots are i guess?
Click to expand...

FWIW, the results were the same in DI before filmout.

There were suggestions in an earlier thread that LCD screens boost the contrast so much plus run at 60hz which adds a strobing effect. We didn't specifically test with film on LCD but we did see more strobing on a cheap desktop monitor than we did on a higher end LCD running at 24hz.

Maybe this is what you're seeing?
 
the problem was also seen while testing on a 40 k usd class A monitor and a projector.
system was baselight.
but thank you for the information.


edit:
there will be online trailers of this movie,
and i dont guess that average joe with average desktop is ok with stuttering images in a trailer...
he doesnt care if its shot with a mobile phone or something else, and a side note like please watch in vlc player to not get stuttering images is not acceptable, it just have to work.

we just need to dig a little more to find a solution.

still, we all have to learn a lot about raw digital cinema and how to present it properly to the audience in all mediums.
 
Carsten Fenstermacher said:
poor average joe has to put up with tearing, inconsistent frame rates, mismatched display rates, banding, blocky, overcompressed trailers. i have to be average joe sometime and i hates it.

for strobing though we does film panning rates and have not had problem yet with strobing. early on when there was lots of discussion about strobing we did test of many panning speeds and the film rate tables was best results. we repeated the same tests for f35 and f23 to be safe and results were same.
Click to expand...

we have different pov`s
i see average joe paying my bill by watching the movie, so i try to please him.


i guess this will get soon to something like pc vs mac.
strobe as film vs. not like film
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Is there less motion blur than there should be in the footage?

This is worrying me a bit.
Click to expand...

That might be the case, but changing the shutter angle doesn't fix it. I think it has something to do with LCD screens and the resolution of the red image. The strobing changes due to the screen I am looking at, which leads me to believe it is at least somewhat dependent on viewing source. It seems like it ghosts slightly in a progressive fashion especially on a computer monitor. I don't notice it on a CRT.
 
SF Geek said:
That might be the case, but changing the shutter angle doesn't fix it.
Click to expand...

That's what I said a while back. The shutter angle doesn't seem to make any difference to the image seen on the LCD display. The only thing that makes the footage look better is "open gate" but that's just upping the LCD refresh rate.

I only noticed the stuttering after my RED was upgraded to the new boards/ put build 17 on. It never bothered me once in the year before that. I thought I was just imagining it but more people seem to be talking about it now so maybe I'm not crazy.
 
Unfortunately with the SALT test I have a bit too much on my plate to try and test this stuff for you guys now. My general experience has been that the viewing device is extremely important when judging judder. I have seen it but it doesn't bother me most of the time and often it is gone when viewing on CRT or 24hz 1080P/2K projectors. I also saw Knowing and quite a few other test film outs and the judder never seemed worse than 35mm although slightly different in feel. I would use the 35mm panning speed guides as Carsten recommends. I guess the answer is that this is the look of the Red One, you either like it or you don't. I doubt there is a "fix" other than using a panning speed you've tested and are comfortable with.
 
I really do think most of what people are seeing is a result of the viewing path. LCD's (especially cheap ones and even some expensive ones) have a very slow refresh time compared to CRT's. It certainly effects me in the edit room. Clips look different on my twin 23" dells and my 43" LCD on the wall.
 
I don´t agree at all.

We do colour grades of 35mm film as well as red on the same displays and projectors and you don´t see the strobing when using the film dpxs.

In the same way, most of the film print outs that i´ve done show the issue (if you are looking for it) while none of the film prints back to film had the problem i won´t deny you can have strobing with film but it´s not as usual).
 
I have to agree with Macgregor here I have post 35mm for 15years and look and 35mm scaned to HD on a CRT Grade one almost every day. I also work with Red alot and have done an extensive amount of testing and posting over the last 18months as I own 4 camera's. You can get judder on 35mm but red it is much more obvious!


Cheers, Chris
 
I can see that a lot of people here should work more with RED1 and experiment daily.

Many of them are "bully" or a "half cooked" DPs in a different incarnation and mostly they are talking nonsense about RED1.

It's annoying to listen that sh**, I'm slowly getting fed up and boring about all that.

Now back to panning with RED1 that everybody should experiment and learn by yourself.

In general the panning speed should be very slow and done very carefully.

Also btw, I saw a lot of features shot on film that have panning speed and stutter issue.

The last famous examples of panning stutter was "Dark Knight", a blockbuster of the year 2008 that has extremely high tech people involved in production.

Just take BR disk and watch by yourself what I was talking about at 1080p plasma/lcd-tv or go to the cinema and see it if it is still playing.

At the end I'll offer to see the two examples of panning on RED1 done with Tokina 11-16mm DX wide angle lens @ 11mm.

One more thing:

1. Panning speed just in the case when you follow a moving object or a talent must be the same as an object's/talent's speed, otherwise you'll get stutter (digital or analog/film).

2. Panorama shots should be done with a very slow panning speed that can avoid any stutter (digital or analog/film).

Download here the two panning examples I was talking about (shot handheld with RED1) 25fps, 1/50 shutter>>>
 
Could it be a PAL thing? Are you (MacGrgor, Chrisreynolds) shooting at 25P? I always find 25P/50I playback to be incredibly stroby and if you're going back to film at 24 then there may be some inconsistency with the rolling shutter that is causing this. Most of the time in the US when we see 24P it's either being played back at 48(24hz) or in a 3:2 pull down to 29.97 which has it's own uniquely ugly affect on the motion that may hide the judder your seeing. My observation is that most of the complaints about the studder are coming form PAL countries, and the ones OK with it (other than Sanjin) seem to be in the US.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
I can see that a lot of people here should work more with RED1 and experiment daily.

Many of them are "bully" or a "half cooked" DPs in a different incarnation and mostly they are talking nonsense about RED1.

It's annoying to listen that sh**, I'm slowly getting fed up and boring about all that.
Click to expand...

sanjin, sometimes your statements are just confusing.
you expect respect, so do it with others.

i did test a red last week with an ASC member..and i dont guess you become an ASC member by beeing a half cooked DP.

There a lot of powerful dop`s right now having big, big interest in shooting with red.

And i am really interested in understanding everything about and around RED, to "help" the DOPs shooting RED.

These kind of statements made Claudio Miranda go away.
In the meanwhile he made Benjamin Button...means: he was one of the most valueable sources in the net...and far far away from beeing a half baked dp
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
sanjin, sometimes your statements are just confusing.
you expect respect, so do it with others.

i did test a red last week with an ASC member..and i dont guess you become an ASC member by beeing a half cooked DP.

There a lot of powerful dop`s right now having big, big interest in shooting with red.

And i am really interested in understanding everything about and around RED, to "help" the DOPs shooting RED.

These kind of statements made Claudio Miranda go away.
In the meanwhile he made Benjamin Button...means: he was one of the most valueable sources in the net...and far far away from beeing a half baked dp
Click to expand...

Kaya,

everybody knows here that Claudio Miranda is a great cinematographer.

But also I'm a bit confused by following your reply to me here how Claudio Miranda has to to with my post on this tread or even RED1 panning "issue".

1. Or you just "wanted' to "blame" me for something I didn't do obviously.

2. Or you just wanted to "protect" your yourself... using Miranda's name or even ASC member (without his/her name) here for something totally different...

It sounds pretty funny for me this type of talking...
 
One consideration about motion artefacts is that the sharper the image the worse the artefacts appear to the eye. Red images can be very sharp (lens and composition dependent of course) so motion artefacts can be very visible. I helped shoot some camera tests a while ago F900, AJ27f, 35mm, 16mm when HD emerged and the same issue cropped up then on the HD cameras when shooting progressive. At the time there was much debate about reducing depth of field to soften the back ground which was much of the concern as the subject was wildlife and pan speed wasnt controlable with some subjects, Just try asking a cheetah to run slower !

Is the consensus that the pan speeds for given arc and distance to subject seem to work OK in the American Cinematorgraphers manual ? if not how do we calculate pan speeds for S35mm digital cameras ?

Dave
 
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