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Stuttering image while Panning

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Cüneyt Kaya

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hey guys we have sometimes a stuttering in the image when we pan...
its like as if the image hangs or doesnt moove--hence stutters.

i know its because the paning speed was wrong.

shot 24 fps with 172 degree shutter.

the dop never did shoot digital before, and he has the opinion this strobing is not the same as on 35mm...it doesnt look and feel the same.
he is comfortable with how it looks on 35mm when doing wrong panning speeds, but not on red.

what i want to know...

has someone a link for panning speeds for RED/35 mm.
some easy tricks to avoid it.

can some motion blur in post safe these shots, because they are not usable.

scene: high contrast, high detail

and some links to threads where it was discussed would be cool too.


thanks

kaya
 
i have to admit, it does look for me different then on 35mm.
the stuttering is not acceptable in high contrast scenes.

red is not film and not video...it combines the best of both world`s...so is there a way to combine this.
reds strobing looks too hard and visible inmho
isnt there a way to cheat the red footage?
 
Stutter at 24 fps

Stutter at 24 fps

this is by far the biggest complaint the DPs that i work with have about RED. and it is really noticeable in high contrast scenes.

i would love to hear some suggestions on how to soften this stuttering effect......
Click to expand...

The reason why is because of the high definition video preview output on the RED ONE you can actually see it. I believe that you will find that its exactly the same on film, but you don't see it in the field because you have a relatively low contrast NTSC video tap, and then the dailies tend to be graded.
 
Is it a slow pan?.
Did you try converting just that panning shot to a series of TIFFS and then converting it back to a regular codec like uncompressed or prores?
 
Pan speed you have to learn a lot with shooting film but with S35 sort of digital cinema even more because no any of

existing "previews" can give you an exact feeling how actually it is until you reach a final stage at the postproduction.


Some of the panning quick & dirty examples find here>>>
 
J Davis said:
Is it a slow pan?.
Did you try converting just that panning shot to a series of TIFFS and then converting it back to a regular codec like uncompressed or prores?
Click to expand...

it starts as a slow pan, then gets quicker...

i will try it with the tiffs.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Pan speed you have to learn a lot with shooting film but with S35 sort of digital cinema even more because no any of

existing "previews" can give you an exact feeling how actually it is until you reach a final stage at the postproduction.


Some of panning quick & dirty examples find here>>>
Click to expand...

hi sanjin,
thank you for the link,
actually i am not th dp.
the dp knows how to pan and what it will look like on 35mm when breaking that rule.

we did several filmouts to 35mm and it was noticable...
but maybe it was noticable because the attention was there already in the dailies.

red is too sharp:)
 
i find a million informations,
i need a scientific one.

1) why does it happen in general
2) would a global shutter soften it and make it less visible
3) why does it look different when shot on 35mm
4) whats the name of the effect

ok some tips an tricks i grabbed:
seems to be obvious while high detail high contrast scene panings
wide lenses seem to make it more visible

to avoid:
of course use the right paning speeds.
1/40 shutter------impossible in most on location shoots because of 50hz lights
1/30 shutter

no high detail or high contrast scenes( seems strange to me)
 
Hey Kaya,

I guess that a mechanical shutter soften the edge and make it smooth when you pan on film.

I went to see Knowing the first week-end of its release and spend the whole movie watching for noise in the blue channel and judding in the pan.

When judding start in the movie, its cut to another shoot, so you dont have they effect too long. It appear during the class room scene where there is windows with vertical bars between.

To resolve the problem, just follow lines when you pan or follow something moving and your eyes is on the moving object. Have small depth of field to have your background out of focus. Use 1/30th in last...

I did some project that i was force to use 29.97fps. When you have white back drop. When people walk in front of the white back drop, it judde because of the hight contrast. I did a project in 29.97fps and in post they had some "strobe" effect in FCP. When i will have time, i want to test shooting 29,97 and having the pulldown made on computer. There is some Natress's plugin that is doing it, i think, got to try that!

Honestly, judding is part of the 24 fps and 180 degree shutter. Ive seen it in many movies shoot with others digital cinema. Thins is, Red is use on many small projet and people dont understand this fact. The other day, a producer came in a middle of a shoot to see all the footage we did during the day. I show him some and we didnt find any judding... he ask that i check again. I was told that they have to do a reshoot of another project because of judding.

Last week, an editor told me that he say the same think, all day of shooting in the garbage because the DP didnt take care of the judding... it was shoot on 35mm film. So you have to take care of all this all the time.

If Epic get the judding more closer to film and if the cam can get 1 stop more sensitive in low light... it will be a dream machine!

Etienne Caron
Abnormis Scope
www.abnormisscope.com

35mm Camera recommended Panning Speeds:
http://www.gecko-cam.com/HTML/KNOW-HOW/panning-speed.htm
 
172?

172?

Cüneyt Kaya said:
shot 24 fps with 172 degree shutter.
Click to expand...

The 172.8 degree shutter trick only works on static subjects, if the camera or subject move you can get strobe under vapor lights that will make bands, there is not a way around that, you can see them with your eyes also.

Some pan or follow rates will sync to the flicker of the lights and some will not, if you hit the right movement speed you sync with the blinking lights and the pattern stands still, at other rates it will move or in a few cases cancel, or be a harmonic of the frame rate. Since you have two Hz, 50Hz and 24Hz you get a different effect than using 24Hz and 60Hz since the harmonics are not as closely related.

A small bright subject on a dark background will show it more than a gray subject on a gray background etc. The higher the contrast the camera (or CC) the more you would see it.
 
i dont know why or wtf is causing this.

exported to QT.

QT Player shows a strobing (high quality setting disabled).
Redcine shows a strobing.

but with VLC Player and the exported qt imported into fcp there is no strobo.
and on PC there is no strobo too.
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
i dont know why or wtf is causing this.

exported to QT.

QT Player shows a strobing (high quality setting disabled).
Redcine shows a strobing.

but with VLC Player and the exported qt imported into fcp there is no strobo.
and on PC there is no strobo too.
Click to expand...
Possibly because of a change in Gamma, when you see the strobing in redcine if you turn the brightness down on the screen it'll probably appear to dissappear because the high contrasting subjects are closer gamma wise just as the change of gamma in those applications/OS may cause them to be closer.

Film is very similar, take a look at the scene in the latest Bond where they are walking through MI5's building and the background is very white and they are wearing dark colours, boost the brightness and it's very obvious. Or the scene where Bond enters the apartment and kills the assasin. A lot can be hidden with a good grade as long as it was shot well in the first place.

Paul
 
Anyone that says that film flickers in the same way while panning has obvioulsy not shot film. I´ll bet 1000€ right now that if we set up a film camera and a red together on the same tripod head and we pan, we won´t get the stuttering on the film camera.

The old film panning speed rules do not apply here.

RED ONE shows the strobing more than a F900 or a DVX. In fact, i had never seen any issues with any other progresive camera until the RED.
The strobe happens with camera motion but also in close ups or when an actor moves a bit fast. And you can´t tell the actor to move slower because my camera cannot capture him well.
 
macgregor said:
Anyone that says that film flickers in the same way while panning has obvioulsy not shot film. I´ll bet 1000€ right now that if we set up a film camera and a red together on the same tripod head and we pan, we won´t get the stuttering on the film camera.

The old film panning speed rules do not apply here.

RED ONE shows the strobing more than a F900 or a DVX. In fact, i had never seen any issues with any other progresive camera until the RED.
The strobe happens with camera motion but also in close ups or when an actor moves a bit fast. And you can´t tell the actor to move slower because my camera cannot capture him well.
Click to expand...

it is extreme visible on highdetail highcontrast shots...

its just not possible to say:
hey dont do pans on high contrast scences.

and it doesnt look the same as on film.
and truly i cant say to the actor that he shouldnt walk like he did the last 40 years of his life so my red can catch it.

it makes no sense to deny that it is obvious, we need to find a solution/workaround.
i dont think that it is the red itself.
guess its combination of some things.
debayering in post, 24 fps, read reset time etc.
monitoring..etc

and sometimes its just not possible to do ultraslow pans and not to shoot high contrast

this is a case for mr. i-can-test-everything-to-death-and-find-the-thruth-evin grant
 
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