What are your future lens buying plans

[jaadgy akanni]

Does size matter? My wife wants FF35, I've always been happy with S35...

Only those who can't afford FF35 say size doesn't matter:rofl:

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

someone should sig that

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

There are many points to consider:

1. Pal/NTSC is around since 40 years or more. Most TV stations still broadcast SD. I bet 1080 will be around for the next 3 or 4 decades.

2. Less than 1/100 of higher budget projects will end up on the big screen. Not to mention all the music video, ads, coperate stuff, doccos, etc...

3. According to IBU modern 35mm projection is around 720p, maxing out at 800p. Most find the traditional screen already a challenge when ist comes to focus, VFX, etc....

4. Resolution is subjective. Why does a 35mm shot commercial look on televison so much crisper and prominent than on video shot news? Both have the same measured resolution.

5. Digital projection will be seen soon in many cinemas, no doubt. Is measured full 4K necessary? I doubt this. See point 3. and 4.

5. With S35mm I can control DOF nicely and find it very balanced between deep DOF and shallow DOF. With FF35 this will be more difficult.

6. FF35mm is an even bigger challenge focuswise. I find S35mm challenging enough. Devices such as electronic FF systems won't change the fact that the DOF is more shallow and hence more difficult to nail.

7. Speed. I don't know of any wideangle FF lens with a T Stop of 1.4.

8. Zooms. There are many who would love to see a S35mm zoom that maginfies 10 times but should not weight more than 2 kilogramm. Currently a S35mm 10-1 zoom weights 5+ kilogramm. Seems to be hard to pull off, if not impossible. FF35 will be even harder in this regard. Does anyone want a 10-1 which is even bigger than the Optimo 24-290?

Jim did turned the motion picture camera world up side down. But there are so many points that are not in favour of a FF35mm motion picture system which is not only used for the big digital screen but many other applications that investing in traditional S35mm glas remains meaningful, IMO.

Hans

 

[Rudi Herbert]

I'll buy all RED lenses. Does my opinion count? We are building the lenses I have always wanted. I'm not buying them because they are RED. I'm buying them because they are better.

Jim

And if you make a 14mm, and hope to God, something even wider at some point, then RED is EVERYTHING I'll ever need to buy.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Jim did turned the motion picture camera world up side down. But there are so many points that are not in favour of a FF35mm motion picture system which is not only used for the big digital screen but many other applications that investing in traditional S35mm glas remains meaningful, IMO.

Hans

I'm with Hans on this one. I will still invest in the FF35 Epic but will mostly use the cine lenses on it. What I'm after is to be able to use my Anamorphic lenses with it and the specifications and DR that it comes with.

So, yes it's probably wise to invest in S35 cine lenses after all RED are doing them as well, but who knows hahahaha.

 

[Matt Uhry]

There are many points to consider:

1. Pal/NTSC is around since 40 years or more. Most TV stations still broadcast SD. I bet 1080 will be around for the next 3 or 4 decades.

2. Less than 1/100 of higher budget projects will end up on the big screen. Not to mention all the music video, ads, coperate stuff, doccos, etc...

3. According to IBU modern 35mm projection is around 720p, maxing out at 800p. Most find the traditional screen already a challenge when ist comes to focus, VFX, etc....

4. Resolution is subjective. Why does a 35mm shot commercial look on televison so much crisper and prominent than on video shot news? Both have the same measured resolution.

5. Digital projection will be seen soon in many cinemas, no doubt. Is measured full 4K necessary? I doubt this. See point 3. and 4.

5. With S35mm I can control DOF nicely and find it very balanced between deep DOF and shallow DOF. With FF35 this will be more difficult.

6. FF35mm is an even bigger challenge focuswise. I find S35mm challenging enough. Devices such as electronic FF systems won't change the fact that the DOF is more shallow and hence more difficult to nail.

7. Speed. I don't know of any wideangle FF lens with a T Stop of 1.4.

8. Zooms. There are many who would love to see a S35mm zoom that maginfies 10 times but should not weight more than 2 kilogramm. Currently a S35mm 10-1 zoom weights 5+ kilogramm. Seems to be hard to pull off, if not impossible. FF35 will be even harder in this regard. Does anyone want a 10-1 which is even bigger than the Optimo 24-290?

Jim did turned the motion picture camera world up side down. But there are so many points that are not in favour of a FF35mm motion picture system which is not only used for the big digital screen but many other applications that investing in traditional S35mm glas remains meaningful, IMO.

Hans

I'm thinking the same thoughts as Hans. My bread and butter, paying clients ( TV Spots ) are still having discussions whether to finish in HD or SD !

S35 will be where I sink the majority of my lens money.

All this being said, an Epic 645, with Hassy lenses sounds like it would be fun... I don't see the demand from the client side.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Claus Mueller]

But there are obviously some of us want to buy FF35 for whatever reasons. Everything you can do with S35 you can do with FF35 plus 6k plus DR.
Back to the topic lens buying plans. Why do they need the RED primes plus the upcoming FF35 electronic lenses?

 

[Jannard]

But there are obviously some of us want to buy FF35 for whatever reasons. Everything you can do with S35 you can do with FF35 plus 6k plus DR.
Back to the topic lens buying plans. Why do they need the RED primes plus the upcoming FF35 electronic lenses?

The FF35 RED lenses will be a "different breed of cat" than the S35 RED Pro Primes... which are full manual "very cine" designs.

The FF35 lenses will have auto-focus, auto-iris and image stabilized capabilities (like current DSLR lenses) with "cine-accommodation" features... hence DSMC.

Jim

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Why you guys see the FF35 sensor size as problem?

You can just shoot cropped and get more FPS (with Epic) and as said use anamorphics properly, right?

Or does it come from the psychological feeling that you are most of the time wasting most of the sensor?

Please educate me.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Back to the topic lens buying plans. Why do they need the RED primes plus the upcoming FF35 electronic lenses?

The FF35 brains will be 6K resolution and I want buy the FF35 electronic lenses to be able to take advantage of the extra resolution. Because the "Monstro" sensor has larger photosites, with an S35 lens you will be limited to "only" 5K or less (4.5K?).

 

[jaadgy akanni]

The FF35 RED lenses will be a "different breed of cat" than the S35 RED Pro Primes... which are full manual "very cine" designs.

The FF35 lenses will have auto-focus, auto-iris and image stabilized capabilities (like current DSLR lenses) with "cine-accommodation" features... hence DSMC.

Jim

Autofocus, autoIris, and image stabilization...all proprietary capabilities, exclusively complementary with the camera brains?

 

[Jannard]

Autofocus, autoIris, and image stabilization...all proprietary capabilities, exclusively complementary with the camera brains?

Yes to proprietary. And yes to compatible with all the "Brains". So you can use the FF35 lenses on all models (except Fixed 8x obviously) and the only limitation is the sensor size. You can use, for example, an FF35 lens on an S35 brain and have full auto capability. There is a compromise doing this when shooting "cine" compared to RED Pro Primes. It will be better than shooting DSLR lenses from other manufacturers but not like using dedicated cine lenses. Again... DSMC.

Jim

 

[Claus Mueller]

The FF35 RED lenses will be a "different breed of cat" than the S35 RED Pro Primes... which are full manual "very cine" designs.

The FF35 lenses will have auto-focus, auto-iris and image stabilized capabilities (like current DSLR lenses) with "cine-accommodation" features... hence DSMC.

Jim

Thank you Jim for quick response, great service as always.

 

[Alan Fletcher]

Will they be parfocal?

Will they be parfocal?

The FF35 lenses will have auto-focus, auto-iris and image stabilized capabilities (like current DSLR lenses) with "cine-accommodation" features... hence DSMC.
Jim

Will they be parfocal?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I'm buying them because they are better.

I would also like to say the same way. However, better or best are not absolute issues but they depend on the needs of who rates lenses. My question is, will there be long RED teles and zooms having wide range available? Moreover, as I work with wildlife documents, also needed lenses which are not that heavy.

This lens issue is bit puzzling for won't be able to exploit the upgrade program to Epic X before there exists whole set of RED lenses or a working mount preferable to EF lenses.

So, could you Jim give us some idea what you think is the best way to go on, if one has this kind of special needs?

 

[jaadgy akanni]

So you can use the FF35 lenses on all models (except Fixed 8x obviously) and the only limitation is the sensor size. You can use, for example, an FF35 lens on an S35 brain and have full auto capability. There is a compromise doing this when shooting "cine" compared to RED Pro Primes. It will be better than shooting DSLR lenses from other manufacturers but not like using dedicated cine lenses. Again... DSMC.

Jim

Gotta love that. Thanks Jim.

 

[Jannard]

I would also like to say the same way. However, better or best are not absolute issues but they depend on the needs of who rates lenses. My question is, will there be long RED teles and zooms having wide range available? Moreover, as I work with wildlife documents, also needed lenses which are not that heavy.

This lens issue is bit puzzling for won't be able to exploit the upgrade program to Epic X before there exists whole set of RED lenses or a working mount preferable to EF lenses.

So, could you Jim give us some idea what you think is the best way to go on, if one has this kind of special needs?

Everything "depends". I don't know your specific needs but with Scarlet and EPIC, you have a ton of options... including 3rd parties that are making electronic control mounts for Canon and Nikon lenses, and there are more on the way (as I understand). I obviously prefer the RED system because it will be integrated and unique to the DSMC tasks. But we won't have every tool available for awhile. We just started this program and it will take us a couple more years to catch up on every possible option.

Choices... choices.

Jim

Jim

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

We just started this program and it will take us a couple more years to catch up on every possible option.

Jim, Thanks a lot.

It would be helpful if RED announced the specifications of the new mount as early as possible. Then the 3rd parties and the camera owners could start to plan how to adapt the existing 3rd party Red One mounts to Epic/Scarlet. I'm just saying that although really like my Red One still would like to go to Epic X as early as possible.

 

[Jarred Land]

Dont worry Lauri, we will have a pretty extensive matrix on Red.com as soon as it's complete.

 

[Daniel Browning]

Hans,

I appreciate your down-to-earth perspective.

Jim did turned the motion picture camera world up side down. But there are so many points that are not in favour of a FF35mm motion picture system which is not only used for the big digital screen but many other applications that investing in traditional S35mm glas remains meaningful, IMO.

Although I disagree with some of your points, I still agree with your conclusion. The lack of cine FF35 lenses, by itself, is enough to cast some doubt on Jim's sanity. There's a fine line between visionary genius and crazy dude.

1. Pal/NTSC is around since 40 years or more. Most TV stations still broadcast SD. I bet 1080 will be around for the next 3 or 4 decades.

2. Less than 1/100 of higher budget projects will end up on the big screen. Not to mention all the music video, ads, coperate stuff, doccos, etc...

3. According to IBU modern 35mm projection is around 720p, maxing out at 800p. Most find the traditional screen already a challenge when ist comes to focus, VFX, etc....

5. Digital projection will be seen soon in many cinemas, no doubt. Is measured full 4K necessary? I doubt this. See point 3. and 4.

Agreed. Some projects don't need more than 1080p and don't want the delay of downsizing in post. Hopefully, the 1080p recording mode on the new cameras speed up the workflow for those. For everyone else, there's 4K+.

4. Resolution is subjective. Why does a 35mm shot commercial look on television so much crisper and prominent than on video shot news? Both have the same measured resolution.

My experience is the opposite: that video looks "crisper" most of the time, due to oversharpening, aliasing, and interlace twitter. It is often also more more "prominent" due to the distracting oversaturation, blown highlights, posterization, and compression artifacts. 35mm, on the other hand, often has more contrast, less sharpening, less saturation, more pleasing tone curve, no aliasing, no interlace artifacts, etc. toe-may-toe toe-mah-toe.

5. With S35mm I can control DOF nicely and find it very balanced between deep DOF and shallow DOF. With FF35 this will be more difficult.

6. FF35mm is an even bigger challenge focuswise. I find S35mm challenging enough. Devices such as electronic FF systems won't change the fact that the DOF is more shallow and hence more difficult to nail.

I don't think that's the case. Here is how I would put it: FF35 does not offer any improvement in noise or dynamic range over S35 when used in low light at the same depth of field. It's only the same, not better or worse. (Given raw cameras with the same angle of view, perspective, and technology.)

Similarly, S35 does not offer any improvement over 1-chip 2/3" in low light when used at the same depth of field.

In other words: one must shoot thinner DOF in order to get any improvement in noise or dynamic range in low light.

Ample light is a different story; however, as one may get the noise/DR benefit of the larger sensor without changing the depth of field.

I tried to explain it in this thread.

7. Speed. I don't know of any wideangle FF lens with a T Stop of 1.4.

Yep, T/1.5 is as fast as they get. However, I think it should be pointed out that T/2.2 on FF35 has the same light gathering power as T/1.4 on S35, so it results in the same apparent exposure (brightness), noise, and dynamic range. (T/1.4 on FF35 would have less noise instead of just the same).

Similarly, T/1.8 on Scarlet 2/3" has the same light gathering power as T/4.0 on RED ONE. Noise is the same again on those two. When the physical aperture is the same, then the DOF, light gathering power, and even diffraction is also the same.

Everyone thinks in terms of f-stops, and so believe that larger formats must have thinner DOF, more light, less diffraction, etc. This was a necessary fact of life with film because of the nonlinear response. But now that we have linear raw digital, the "crop factor" also applies to f-number as well as angle of view: it's now possible to shoot the same aperture (different f-number) on a large format and get the same results.