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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Actual dolly shot versus a RED 4K/2K push-in in editing. . .

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

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Hi all. . .

I'm curious as to what the RED community thinks about push-ins as a substitute for a dolly move. It is far easier to do a push-in in editing than it is on set in certain circumstances. I'd like to know if small "fake" pushes here and there are an aesthetic issue or not.

Thanks much.

Stephen
 
Well, I think they look fake.

Although they can be a life-saver when there are problems.

Rob Gardner
 
Hey, Stephen!

If you're finishing in 2K, a digital push-in should look just fine, as long as it's somewhat subtle (not a 200% push-in). However, it won't look like a dolly move, because the perspective won't change. Instead, it will look like a zoom.

Some people feel zooms during shots are a no-no, but I think they can be very effective if used sparingly.
 
Or use both methods if the dolly-in wasn't quick enough or in tight enough. Depends on the subject matter, but could be a trippy effect if so desired.
 
A real push in does more than "zoom" it alters the framing in such a way as to bring the audience emotionally closer to the subject, while a zoom does that in a more removed visual sense.

My 2 cents

Jay
 
I think zooms into frames have their place but they do not take the place of a proper dolly shot. The Star Wars prequels have these all over the place- which makes me think the cameras were just pegged down for loooong exposition scenes and they tried to enliven them up with post zooming. Mixed results....

Anyways- it looks different because when you dolly you create very clear perspective shifts as foreground and background objects shift in relation to each other. When you just zoom into a shot you get none of that because all your doing is enlarging the frame.

BTW- if you want a super effective dolly that sets up in no time, try the CamTram:

http://www.camtramsystem.com/

Not the cheapest I've ever seen but it completely rocks and sets up faster than any other dolly I've used.

Noah
 
Hi there, Noah. . .

We actually thought about buying a CamTram, but in the end we decided to build our own CamTram-esque system instead. We really like it, and it saved us about $2000. What I really wanted to be able to do was shoot over the top of people (with the camera pointing straight down), and this lets us do that and more.

I am not a big fan of the fake dolly shots myself, but I was just curious if they are always considered losers.

Thanks much.

Stephen
 
Lens choice makes a huge difference.
Dolly move on a 50mm, no big deal.
Dolly move on a 14mm, big deal. Especially if there is foreground.
 
Personally I put zooms in the league of low production value. I fight like a badger to avoid it unless the director is going for some kind of effect.
 
A push will look like a Zoom. I know it is subjective but I do believe for a majority I agree with BOKEH that zooms fall into the league of low production value.
Once again, that is subjective, filmmaking is filmmaking with or without zooms. So play around and see what you think.

Zoller
 
Veering O/T for a bit...

Of course, it's all subjective, but there are plenty of great mainstream Hollywood films that have used zooms during shots with great success.

In Apollo 13, when Jim Lovell (Tom Hanks) is watching the broadcast of Neil Armstrong landing on the moon. That super-slow zoom into his close-up still gives me chills.

And The Usual Suspects has several great zoom shots as well.

Naturally, like any other filmmaking technique, it can be overused to the point of obnoxiousness. I actually really hate all these no-budget indie shorts that use a dolly for every shot, just because they have access to a dolly. Same with a jib arm or crane.

A zoom is just a technique. Use it if it works for the shot.
 
Great idea Jaime. . . I'll have to watch that shot again. Our next film has a lot of opportunities for that sort of shot.

Stephen
 
Hi Stephen

Sometimes a push-in is all you have so I understand wanting to use it to improve the shot. Sometimes I have added a slight post pan to the push in which can help hide it looking like an in post push in and more like a dolly move. Please note sometimes it ends up looking like ASS so beware, ha.
 
I've been partial to super super-slow zoom-ins on medium and establishing shots lately. You barely notice them but they keep the frame alive. As for a cheap, no nonsense dolly that is tough as nails and smooth as butter try Doug's long valley super track dolly. I've had it for a few months now and it's such a great tool. It set's up in literally 3 minutes. I used it extensively for a reality pilot I just shot, mostly siting on an apple box and operating handheld.
 
Syntatically, there are major differences between a zoom and a dolly. (You wrote push-in to mean digital zoom, but push-in means dolly in).

A dolly moves the camera (and therefore the audience) physically in space. A dolly changes the proximity of the audience to the subject being filmed. In some cases, a dolly may simply follow the subject, in other cases, it may make the audience more or less sympathetic to a character. The traditional "push-in" (a slow dolly in) is done to show that a character realizes something or focuses on something small, and/or to make the audience more sympathetic to that character's thoughts. Conversely, movies often end with a slow dolly out: "we're physically leaving these people, going somewhere else, bye." (Movies can also end just fine on a slow zoom out which means "we're no longer focusing on just these people," a subtle distinction from "we're physically leaving them," the reason the zoom and dolly can both work here. Generally, the zoom works better if the movie is about watching or observing people; the dolly is better if it's maybe a more traditional movie where we're aligned with the main character. Of course, the most common technique is just to cut to a static, wide-angle, long shot or extra long shot and fade out.)

The zoom is, unlike the dolly, a change in what the audience focuses on but not in where the audience is. Zooms work best either in POV shots or in shots where the director is either trying to cue the audience to look at something or giving the shot a sense of external surveillance. Most other uses of the zoom are a crutch. That said, while zooms usually work best in POV shots (or when motivated by an external presence), they can work well in shots that emulate other senses than sight. If someone gets injured, a quick zoom to their injury can help express the sudden intensity of pain and mental focus on it; Raimi does this well, but it's tricky to pull off when done wrong and can be cheesy.

A common cutting pattern is the zoom in POV shot intercut with the push-in on the person to whose POV we alternate. This cutting pattern shows what the person is seeing, then switches to audience becoming sympathetic to his thoughts (visible on his face) regarding it. This is a good pattern for horror movies or any scene of realization.

The "zolly" move is a complex combination. In Vertigo, it's a point of view shot where we dolly in and zoom out. This emulates the sensation of falling while standing in place.

In Jaws, it's not a POV shot, but a sympathetic close up. It's a combination of a dolly in and a zoom out, again. The dolly in implies that we are becoming sympathetic to Brody's thoughts. The zoom out implies the opposite of a zoom in (and the zoom is sympathetic to his thoughts, too, even though it's not in a POV shot--a risky move), that he's been thinking about something small but is now focusing on a larger issue--the shark attack. This one is tricky. It says "the world falls out from behind him."

So you can use the digital zoom, but make sure you know why you're making the choice. In establishing shots the subtle zoom works, because it says to the audience "here's this location; let's look deeper into it, focus more on it," but when used wildly and without syntactical rigor it loses meaning.
 
Good points all around.

In our case, we were just wanting to add a little more life into shots that had previously been static. I figured a very slight, slow post-zoom might do the trick. We are talking about 10% zooms here.

Anyway, you have just confirmed my earlier sentiments. I am going to watch Apollo 13 again, though. Thanks for that, Jaime.

Stephen
 
Jaime Vallés said:
Veering O/T for a bit...

Of course, it's all subjective, but there are plenty of great mainstream Hollywood films that have used zooms during shots with great success.

In Apollo 13, when Jim Lovell (Tom Hanks) is watching the broadcast of Neil Armstrong landing on the moon. That super-slow zoom into his close-up still gives me chills.
Click to expand...


Hehe... good one... I think the change in perspective from a dolly push would have an effect that would signify that someone's perception/world is changing whereas a zoom/crop only makes the focus change to a more specific portion of said reality, with more detail now available for that section of the "world". This could help make Jim seem as the kind of guy with enough vision to have imagined what this day or what that experience would be. Portraying astronauts as super-human or in that direction would could justify this interpretation. It is a bit convoluted, sure... at least that's what I am used to getting from non-believers of such dissections, but I think that would make sense.... to me.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Hehe... good one... I think the change in perspective from a dolly push would have an effect that would signify that someone's perception/world is changing whereas a zoom/crop only makes the focus change to a more specific portion of said reality, with more detail now available for that section of the "world". This could help make Jim seem as the kind of guy with enough vision to have imagined what this day or what that experience would be. Portraying astronauts as super-human or in that direction would could justify this interpretation. It is a bit convoluted, sure... at least that's what I am used to getting from non-believers of such dissections, but I think that would make sense.... to me.
Click to expand...

I think this makes sense. The push-in indicates a realization about something, or a focus on something in space. A zoom during a point of view shot indicates that the character is focusing in on something.

A zoom into a close up of someone can indicate that the person is mentally focusing on something. You might zoom in on someone while they solve a math problem, for instance, to indirectly show their focused thoughts. The push-in also brings the audience physically closer to the character, while the zoom does not, so the push-in indicates that your thoughts are probably growing increasingly sympathetic to the character's, while the zoom doesn't. Maybe you zoom into a bad guy while he focuses to attack the good guy; maybe you zoom into someone doing math so complex the audience would never understand it.

I don't remember the scene in Apollo 13, but if the scene used a push-in it would indicate a realization about something external (in space), and that the audience might be growing more sympathetic to the character's thought process. Rather, this scene (from what I can tell) has an internalized realization (about self rather than space), and one that the audience does not share in. That's my guess.

Again, you shouldn't just add a zoom to look cool. I mean, if you want to you can, but it's the same thing as adding punctuation all over the place in a sentence. It defies syntax and a smart audience will catch the cheats; an audience unfamiliar with basic film conventions may just feel distanced or confused.
 
Zooms are also very useful in a 'zoom out' situation, where you want the frame to reveal more to the audience without them feeling like they are moving away from the actor or moving within the space.
 
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